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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2009, 11:58:40 AM »
This is a fascinating subject which will cause MANY arguments, due to the relative lack of quality of courses on the Continent compared to the US or UK.

I think it might be fair to argue that the top 100 courses in Europe, as a whole, are only comparable to the top 100 courses in New York or California.  But can you imagine the arguments over 50th or 70th place in the top 100 courses in California?  You would be arguing over a bunch of courses that were 6's or even 5's on the Doak scale -- a wide group of courses with little to distinguish between them.

And as always, in such discussions, the courses with the bigger marketing budgets generally fare better than they should.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2009, 12:54:43 PM »
Tom,
I think that would be brutally unfair to New York. ;)
New York 11-100 would blow away Europe's 11-100.
But come to think of it so would 1-10, but it would be particulary one sided after #50
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2009, 01:09:06 PM »
This is a fascinating subject which will cause MANY arguments, due to the relative lack of quality of courses on the Continent compared to the US or UK.


Hi,

These sorts of comments show why we sometimes like you Americans here on the continent so much  ;D......I am  pretty sure even sth. like Fontana at 57 can make it up with anything in the US on 57 - at the end it's also a question of individual taste.

Nevertheless I am still and allways grateful to you Americans that you liberated Germany from the brown evil.

Sincerely,

Christoph
   
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2009, 01:42:22 PM »
Hi Sean
I have heard a lot of great things about PGA Cat - several people raving about how good it is. I would love to play it to form an opinion. What was it about the course that you thought was poor?
Cheers
Paul

Paul

PGA Cat isn't a poor course.  If you are in the area its worth a look, but I wouldn't plan to be in the area to play it - if you know what I mean.  The bottom line is the course is non-descript.  For a course that is meant to be top 10 (not sure where it ranks now) it is not a shining example of excellence  For other newer courses I have seen both Praia del Rey and the Chateaux  course at Medoc are better and Chateaux hopelessly outclasses PGA Cat.  All that said, I am very fond of Circolo Golf Venezia and it doesn't even get a mention.  I don't know if its better than ant of the others I mentioned, but it sure has charm - of course being a  boat ride away from Venice helps!

Check out this site.  These guys are generally pretty good at this listing business.


http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/topcourses.asp?Move=Previous&id=8

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2009, 03:57:41 PM »
Christoph:

I am totally unfamiliar with Fontana ... but if it's as good as the 57th course in the USA, you should definitely do a thread about it, complete with full pictures, because it is flying well under the radar over here.

How many of the top courses in the USA have you seen?  I'm not very well versed in European courses, but I have seen 6 of the top 25 on the list above, so I've got a bit of an idea how the two scales might compare.

P.S.  I can't take any credit for saving Germany ... my dad served on New Guinea and Pelileu and Okinawa, not Normandy.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 04:00:50 PM by Tom_Doak »

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2009, 05:17:14 AM »
Hi Tom,

which are the 6 courses you have seen?

I could do a threat about Fontana next time I am in Austria - most of my golfing fellows there rank it on no.1 in Austria and they are not members at Fontana? I took an Austrian Course as an exemple as being a German myself I did not want to take a German course....such as Hamburg-Falkenstein or Club zur Vahr or the Faldo Course at Bad Saarow or .....

To my opinion Canadian Doug Carrick and Austrian did a great job at Fontana, even thougt the course might not be built according to your minimalistic design approach as apperantly much earth was moved....but you shouldn't forgot that there is much less land available for golf courses in central Europe than in America so the chosen, sometimes flat and boaring land is not allways as well suited as it should be...

As allways there remains the question about how good and realistic these Rankings are as other posts here are allready indicationg. The list also depends to a great extent on the choices of the judges....

I have seen none of the top American courses - but I have more than 800 golf books in my library and I have seen a lot of the U.S. courses in coffee table, golf architectural and golf history books...I only know about 25 courses in New England from playing or seing them...

Of course you are the expert and the architect and I am only a humble golf historian, but I just thought your post was unfair to continental Europe....that's all I wanted to say....

Regards,

Christoph


Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2009, 05:30:48 AM »
As allways there remains the question about how good and realistic these Rankings are as other posts here are allready indicationg. The list also depends to a great extent on the choices of the judges....

I have seen none of the top American courses - but I have more than 800 golf books in my library and I have seen a lot of the U.S. courses in coffee table, golf architectural and golf history books...I only know about 25 courses in New England from playing or seing them...

Of course you are the expert and the architect and I am only a humble golf historian, but I just thought your post was unfair to continental Europe....that's all I wanted to say....

Regards,

Christoph

Christoph

Welcome to the site.  I appreciate your point PoV because I know you are very savy about the game in Europe.  Furthermore, your labour of love with http://www.golfika.com/eaghc_e.html is an endeavor I fully support (I am a member and I urge all others to either join or donate money).  However, I don't think Tom's comments about the relative quality between US and continental courses are at all unfair.  It is very likely to be an observation with a solid grounding in realism.  That isn't to say that the continent is bereft of good courses, just that given the long, varied, popularity of golf and quantitative nature of architectural history in the US, it shouldn't be at all surprising that the two zones don't compare equally. 

Here is hoping I make it to one of the EAGHC's meetings in the future.  It seems as though you lot really do enjoy yourselves.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 06:00:26 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2009, 05:53:02 AM »
It should be noted that of the top twenty courses on the list, only Halmsted, El Saler, and Barseback are credited to native designers.

The rest are all done by British and Americans.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2009, 08:36:13 AM »
Christoph:

My apologies.  On reflection, you are probably right, that I was being unfair to Europe.

On recount, I've seen only 5 of the top 25 courses listed:

Morfontaine (4)
Chantilly (5)
Kennemer (20)
Hamburger (21)
Haagsche (23)

I loved Morfontaine, but it would probably not get much support as being equal to the fourth best course in New York (Bethpage) or California (Riviera or SFGC).  I think Chantilly is overrated -- no way it would make the top 5 in either state.  However, it is fair to argue that Falkenstein and Kennemer would be within the top 20 of any U.S. state, so perhaps I was not giving enough credit to the middle of the pack.

Still, there is no way those same courses would hold the same ranking in a list of the best courses in all of America, and I don't think you can attribute that all to American bias.  We've got a lot more courses over here, for starters, and there are some parts of the country where one outstanding course spawned many others.

Andrew Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2009, 09:02:00 AM »
Oslo was founded in 1924, but I can't find a reference to its architect.  It may be newer than that.




Oslo is definetely a classic design, a few days ago I compared the 1930 layout with the current layout/routing and there are not many changes -


It is my understanding that Oslo GK is undergoing substantial changes and that the 'new' layout will be very different to the original. It was closed for all of the last season.

The architect/construction company website says it is "a wonderful, strategic and visual redesign of the whole course."

That sounds substantial to me  ;)

Regards
Andrew

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2009, 09:36:10 AM »
Hello Tom,

that sounds better and now I can live with it...  :) - I haven't played Morfontaine but everybody who has (not many though because it's very private) say it's beautiful. I played Chantilly, it's overrated as you say.

Falkenstein (not my home course) and Kennemer are beautiful.

But it's true, you have many more courses (about 20.000) and therefore allready a quantitative nature of Architectural history, let
alone quality, but I just wanted to make a point for the continental Europeans......

Regards,

Christoph
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2009, 09:54:49 AM »
Oslo was founded in 1924, but I can't find a reference to its architect.  It may be newer than that.



It is my understanding that Oslo GK is undergoing substantial changes and that the 'new' layout will be very different to the original. It was closed for all of the last season.

The architect/construction company website says it is "a wonderful, strategic and visual redesign of the whole course."

That sounds substantial to me  ;)

Regards
Andrew

Hello Andrew,

the new layout was put on the OSLO GK web-page a few days ago - that wasn't there when I looked maybe two weeks ago....or at least I didn't see it then..

Of course the architect says it's "a wonderful, strategic and visual redesign of the whole course." - which architekt wouldn't say that.

If you look on the clubs web-side on http://www.oslogk.no/default.aspx?pid=46 and compare the 1932 layout with the 2008 layout you find that there are still most holes remaining at the same spot and there are no holes were the direction has changed. The course occupies the same land than in 1932. Do you destroy a classic design because you put new tees, new bunkers here and there, make the fairways longer and/or build a new green here in there - I am not sure - maybe someone else can give his judgement here - Mark Rowlinson?

Regards,

Christoph





Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Andrew Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2009, 10:32:58 AM »
Hi Christoph,

I don't know if you read Norwegian or not, but the description of changes on the website is indeed substantial.

As you indicated that the maps of the old and new designs seem similar. Indeed, the architects undertaking the changes (  Steve Forrest og Ken Williams ) are following the old routing.

There will be 4 sets of tees. 6200 metres par 71, 5900 metres par 71, 5500m par 72 and 4700m par 72.

A quick read by me has 8 greens being repositioned and 1 realigned. Lots of earth movement...so I stand by using the word 'substantial'.

It will be interesting to see how the new layout flows, and how it plays...

Regards again,
Andrew

Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2009, 12:29:38 PM »
I was looking for some advice on French golf.  One of my members is traveling to France and was looking to play either around Paris, Riviera, or South.  Any suggestions would be appreciated

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2009, 12:47:30 PM »
I was looking for some advice on French golf.  One of my members is traveling to France and was looking to play either around Paris, Riviera, or South.  Any suggestions would be appreciated

Hi Nick,

I personally like the south western corner of France where you have Hossegor, Seignosse, Chiberta and Moliets all very close to each other. If you fancy a travel back in time Pau is an interesting course, it is the oldest on the continent and the place is full of history - Biarritz is the second oldest course in France and also historically interesting, even though the most interesting holes in the "chambre d'armour" were lost after WWII...

Greetings

Christoph

Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2009, 01:01:45 PM »
Christopher,
Thank you for the reply.  He was suggested to try
Golf De Morfontaine
Paris Intl Golf Club
Golf De Saint Cloud

Any thoughts on those?

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2009, 01:25:46 PM »
Christopher,
Thank you for the reply.  He was suggested to try
Golf De Morfontaine
Paris Intl Golf Club
Golf De Saint Cloud

Any thoughts on those?

Morfontaine is a very nice course, but very private as far as I have heard - you can only play with a member there....
Golf de St. Cloud and Paris International are certainly also good choices if you want to stay in the Paris region....

Regards,

Christoph

Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2009, 02:08:40 PM »
I don't think anyone - American or not - would argue that the top courses in the US could be matched by the top courses in continental Europe. Looking only at numbers, there is about a 10:1 ratio of courses.

So in order to make the comparison at least statistically fair, you'd have to put #10 in the US against #1 in Europe and #100 in the US against #10 in Europe. I'm not so sure about the result now... especially when we get to #1000 US vs. #100 Europe.

Ulrich

PS: The actual ratio may be closer to 8:1
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 02:11:44 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2009, 03:03:48 PM »
Christoph got me thinking ... what if we did a ranking of courses where we assumed that all countries were equal?  How many countries should have a course in the top 100?

There are about 32,000 courses in the world today.

16,000 of them are in America, so it should have 50/100.
1,800 in Canada, so it should have 5 or 6.
2,300 in Japan, so it should have 7.
1,560 in Australia, so it should have 5.
1,700 in England, so it should have 5.
500 in South Africa, so it should have 1 or 2.

I don't have a total for the Continent of Europe, so I'll go with Ulrich's number and say there are approx. 4,000 courses.  So in theory the Continent should have a dozen among the top 100, which it certainly doesn't on any ranking I've seen.

Who steals its representative numbers?

There are 430 courses in Scotland and 335 in Ireland, so they should only get one course each!


Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2009, 03:29:40 PM »
Hi Tom,

it was completely new to me that we shall now rate golf courses by statistics!  - the example you give not only shows that there would only be one course in Ireland and Scotland each, but also: How many Tom Doak designs would than be in the Top 100?
You certainly don't want that decision because of statistics....

We have 3.500 (maybe 4.000 seems a bit high) courses in continental Europe - compared to 16.000 in the U.S. that makes gives a 4,5 : 1 ratio of courses (not 10:1 Ulrich!)

You are right, I haven't seen any British or American ranking with 10 or 12 continental golf courses - but maybe that's where these rankings are wrong...at least according to my taste...but it seems that I am pretty much on my own here...

Regards

Christoph

Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2009, 03:42:08 PM »
Christoph:

I would love to know what you consider the 8-10 best courses in Europe (publicly, or privately if you prefer).  I hope to be spending more time over there in the next few years and I need some golf courses to check out.

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2009, 04:02:53 PM »
Ok, we need to get the numbers straight to play this game. According to KPMG's latest Golf Benchmark Survey I am not getting much more than 2000 courses for continental Europe. The number is probably around 2200, which at the 8:1 ratio that I suggested would make the US number of courses 17600. I don't know the precise US number, but it can't be too far off.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Christoph Meister

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2009, 04:40:46 PM »
Ulrich,

the European Golf Association gives a total number of golf courses in 38 affiliated countries as on 01/01/2007:

6.560 - now you have to deduct England (1.897), Scotland (575), Ireland (414) and Wales (158) = 3.516

(you find all these figures on the EGA-web site).

Deduct a few Turkish and the Israeli courses and you have 3.500.

Christoph
Golf's Missing Links - Continental Europe
 https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/wales-2
EAGHC European Association of
Golf Historians & Collectors
http://www.golfika.com
German Hickory Golf Society e.V.
http://www.german-hickory.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2009, 06:53:50 PM »
For what it's worth, the KPMG study I cited also gives the EGA as the source for its numbers. So I guess your numbers win, being from a primary source :)

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: European Top 100
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2009, 07:26:14 PM »
I think the comparison of rankings is very interesting. Why does everyone on this site feel the old classics are underrated in this ranking more than in any other ranking?

For starters the rankers are different people, europeans; In europe we do not nearly have the same golfing culture like in the UK or US. For years only a very small fraction of the population was into golf. This has only started to change in the last two decades really. Therefore the maintenance of courses for years has not been on a par with that in the UK or US. A fast green in mainland europe would be considered medium in the uk and slow in the US, I'm sure.

Funnily this results in US-style RTJ and discipels target golf courses, mainly built in Southern Europe over the past few decades generally being overrated, because they often do have maintenance budgets and expertise that many club-owned courses do not have. As a result the dozens of Colt, Simpson et others' classics are being underrated or even overlooked.

There is light at the end of the tunnel though. More and more clubs are refining their maintenance practices, often importing expertise from overseas, and also more and more clubs are involved in restoration projects. Many of the old classics have been tempered with over the decades by club committee's. I know this has happened in the US and UK as well, but because of the aforementioned lack of a strong golfing culture the damage has been far greater here.

Good examples that I know of are Haagsche (Tom, you should revisit) and Antwerp, but also Eindhoven in the Netherlands and Belgium. If these restaurations continue, I am sure the old classics will get more and more appreciation and rightly so. Especially if we can look through the fact that green speeds may not be comparable, but then again what were the green speeds in Colt 's and Simpsons days?. (Green speeds I think are also different in Europe due to the fact that environmental legislation in many countries permits much less in terms of maintenance than in the US).

What is fair when comparing the rankings? Obviously the in-depth quality in mainland europe is not comparable to the US or UK. And the world's best courses are certainly not in Europe. But a number of the old classics would certainly not look strange in the 70-100 bracket of the world top 100, especially with restoration programs continuing.

But there is more: Some courses are simply overlooked. Courses talked about across the North Sea or the Atlantic are often the courses near major airports/cities or in popular holiday destinations, however there are many others; Many people have not heard of Rosendael, or Sart-Tilman or Grand-Ducal, but they are much better tracks than half of those in the European top 100 ranking.

I have played 10 of the world's top 100 courses and 32 of the european top 100, which is not enough to pass final judgement of course. I am sure though that many people would be pleasantly surprised when they come over and sample the old classics which are here (as well as some of the local classics by architects like Arana and von Limburger).

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