Guillotine Watch

[Carl Rogers]

Hasn't "golf for the people" devolved into "Golf Now", the "hot cart girl" and "Tee Off" and other "grow the game" race to the bottom efforts that get roundly lampooned by some here?

[Mike Wagner]

What is this thread anyway?

Haha - outstanding.  I'm just waiting for the definition of elitist.

Beat you by 19 minutes.

Ask and you shall receive.

It's good that you used the Wikipedia definition because everybody knows that is the gold standard.😉

Lol ... I'll take a stab:


Elitist:


1.  Any douche who thinks he's better than anyone else.
2.  A term used by a douche to categorize a non-douche with means that enjoys life.

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall

For sure there is elitism in the UK.  Just look at the small corner of nKent with Princes, Deal and Sandwich.  The pecking order is clear well beyond course quality.  The history and membership of each club are an integral aspect of the pecking order.

I gotta say, it strikes me that elitism is assumed to be negative.  I don't think is automatically the case.

Ciao

Correct Sean,


there are some very elite clubs in the UK but the vast majority of clubs are anything but elite. Steve's post seems to give the impression that golf in the UK was just for the chosen few but later altered its character to accommodate tourists which is so far from the mark as to be ridiculous. Niall was not saying there was not any elitism just as you are not saying there are only elite clubs.


I seem to recall that Mr. Lapper played Reddish Vale (?). I wonder how long he waited in the car park for someone to come out to take his clubs out of the boot of the car at this elite club?


Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

I seem to recall that Mr. Lapper played Reddish Vale (?). I wonder how long he waited in the car park for someone to come out to take his clubs out of the boot of the car at this elite club?


Jon

As far as I'm aware Steve Lapper has not yet visited Royal Reddish.


Steve Lang however, has!


Elitism is all a matter of where you are looking from. Reddish Vale is very much a working man's club, with often more vans than cars in the parking lot.


To the oiks on the adjacent council estate however, we are a bunch of stuck-up toffs! 




Apparently years ago we used to have people taking clubs out of the boots of golfers' cars, but our excellent security arrangements have eliminated the problem.

[Niall C]

Sean

It was Steve's historical analysis that I differed from. There is definitely an element of elitism or I suppose you could call it stratification. Clubs by there very nature are exclusionary and while you will always have outsiders not being allowed in it isn't always folk trying to get into HCEG or the R&A. I'm sure even Lochgelly Miners Welfare golfing society (if there is such a thing) has wonnabee members who have been blackballed for some reason.

Going back to what Steve was saying he referred to the early clubs changing their business model (not sure they had such a thing back then) in charging visitors in order to keep their subs down when in fact if you think of the early clubs they all (?) played on common ground which they shared with other golfers/farmers/public, so there has never really been an absolute exclusiveness in terms of not allowing outsiders access to courses IMO.

Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Duncan,


my mistake and thanks for the correction.


Jon

[Mike_Young]

Hmmm..the way I see this thing is based all in how one defines elitism.  I see confusion between two terms, elitism and exclusivity.  IMHO exclusivity is earned and cannot be purchased.  There are exclusive clubs.  I like those and have no problem with them.  It is rare you see a good player who is a top flight, professional player who is an elitist.  Most elitists I have seen are not good players and they anoint themselves as elitists.  (Actually I think most elitism is self anointed.)  But most of the elitism I have seen in golf is not in the clubs as much a s some of the members and employees.  Golf lends itself to such due to the fact that the people with the money are so often "jock sniffers" etc for lack of a better word and some average guy who may not have the skills of say a golf pro or supt at some no name course decides he is elite.
 
Examples would be: 

If you are a golf pro/develper type who does his photo shoots with a signature archie with your sweater tied around your neck...you might be an elitist. 
 
If you are a supt who can't sharpen a greensmower but has 5 ribbons on his jacket at a turf conference and consider you outfit "trendsetting".....you might be an elitist. 

If you are a golf professional who worked carts or the range a some exclusive club before becoming the assistant at the local club where you can't break 80 and yet you treat the members as though they are clueless....you might be an elitist. 

( not to leave out archies) if you are some dude who worked for a big signature before going out on your own and you don't have your  name on a single scorecard anywhere and your website only shows the work of the guy you worked for and yet you constantly bash the new breed of dudes out there on the dozers...you might be an elitist. 

If you are a state golf association dude going to the two day rules conference and sitting in the front row, asking 20 questions in two days and wearing you crested blazer to he cocktail party where you only hang with the instructor while he is trying to ditch you...you might be an elitist. 

And lastly, WITH FEW EXCEPTIONS,  if you are a rater who goes into a golf course not on the rating list, to play with your buddies, you have no intention of rating and tells the guy behind the counter you have arrived and wish to play...you ARE an elitist. 

So, even though the word elite may be used to describe exceptional athletes etc, I just don't see it as a description of golf courses that have earned their place.  It is definitely a huge element of some of the newer clubs trying to purchase exclusivity and in doing so act elitist. 
 

[Kalen Braley]

Mike, it looks like Dictionary.com disagrees with you.  Based on how I read it, its more about being a member of that top class, not so much your attitude when you're there.  Even the example in their very first definition is golf related.   


(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.

catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

[Jonathan Mallard]

  The Brits and the Irish treat golf as one of their national pastimes, much like we do for baseball or football. They developed their early golf with healthy doses of elitism, but smartly and contemporarily switched the business modes to opening up in order to allow golf tourist revenue to subsidize their local memberships. Lets not forget their native populations are but mere fractions of our's over here.

There was also this issue that it took an entire day to make one ball. If one was very good at it and didn't get impaled stuffing the feathers into the pouch. Only said 'elites' could afford such. Much less lose one in the whins.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, it looks like Dictionary.com disagrees with you.  Based on how I read it, its more about being a member of that top class, not so much your attitude when you're there.  Even the example in their very first definition is golf related.   


(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.

catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

Kalen,

I'm saying most elites I know are only elites in their own minds.  They are not members of that class.  The exclusives are the real elites but they rarely act that way. 

[Chris Cupit]

Mike, it looks like Dictionary.com disagrees with you.  Based on how I read it, its more about being a member of that top class, not so much your attitude when you're there.  Even the example in their very first definition is golf related.   


(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.

catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

I'm definitely in trouble. I was a classics major (I studied Latin and Greek).  Useless, though I'm good at Trivia.

[John Kavanaugh]

Few insulting stereotypes follow their literal meaning.

[Mike_Young]

Mike, it looks like Dictionary.com disagrees with you.  Based on how I read it, its more about being a member of that top class, not so much your attitude when you're there.  Even the example in their very first definition is golf related.   


(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.

catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

I'm definitely in trouble. I was a classics major (I studied Latin and Greek).  Useless, though I'm good at Trivia.

I agree....you were born in trouble dude...

[Chris Cupit]

Mike, it looks like Dictionary.com disagrees with you.  Based on how I read it, its more about being a member of that top class, not so much your attitude when you're there.  Even the example in their very first definition is golf related.   


(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.

catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

I'm definitely in trouble. I was a classics major (I studied Latin and Greek).  Useless, though I'm good at Trivia.

I agree....you were born in trouble dude...

I was adopted so I lucked out there--it was my college roommate that ruined me 

[Kalen Braley]

This thread reminds me of one of life's beautiful ironies...


Its like the idiot boss everyone works for, where they think they can do better and all...until they step into the role of boss, and everyone despises them.  Its in our nature to become what we loathe and then delude ourselves into thinking we're different! 

[Mike_Young]

Mike, it looks like Dictionary.com disagrees with you.  Based on how I read it, its more about being a member of that top class, not so much your attitude when you're there.  Even the example in their very first definition is golf related.   


(of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society:
elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else.

catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions:
Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

I'm definitely in trouble. I was a classics major (I studied Latin and Greek).  Useless, though I'm good at Trivia.

I agree....you were born in trouble dude...

I was adopted so I lucked out there--it was my college roommate that ruined me 

Your college roommate ruined a lot of people but perhaps he could help us with the Korean situation....

[Thomas Dai]

Elitism is all a matter of where you are looking from. Reddish Vale is very much a working man's club, with often more vans than cars in the parking lot.
To the oiks on the adjacent council estate however, we are a bunch of stuck-up toffs! 
Apparently years ago we used to have people taking clubs out of the boots of golfers' cars, but our excellent security arrangements have eliminated the problem.

Somehow I managed to miss this first time around. Nicely described Duncan

Anyone else recall the first 1 min of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c

atb

[Jon Wiggett]

There was also this issue that it took an entire day to make one ball. If one was very good at it and didn't get impaled stuffing the feathers into the pouch. Only said 'elites' could afford such. Much less lose one in the whins.

Which is why they did not play with featheries Jonathon.