[Jason Thurman]

... instead of the business model at Sand Valley or the development timeline at Sand Valley?


Wisconsin is a very golf-rich state, especially on the public side. Sand Valley's first course is open and at least a dozen or so GCAers have played it, with more to come. How does it compare to other courses in the state, public and private? What works well, and what doesn't? What are the best holes? What are the crappy holes? How does it compare with other modern designs? Or respond to a question that I didn't think to ask. Just talk about the golf course itself, please.

[Jon Heise]

I spent the weekend there.  With the chance to see it as an "active construction site" to now, I get more and more impressed every visit.  The place is beautiful.  I can't recall seeing a place with more texture.  While I've only played about a dozen courses in WI, I'm a native midwesterner, and I can't think of anything that is clearly "better" than SV.  And I've gotten around pretty good.  It's at the very top of my list for fun, playability, challenge, interest.  I really like that it's a pleasant walk (not easy, but pleasant), and you can do the little 6 hole 'loop'.  Very flexible.


Best holes in my mind are #1 (Great chance for easy start.  Go get it!), #2... well, now this is hard.  #5, with it's drop shot par3 and excellent green.  #9 for it's obvious abundance of options.  On the back, #12 is a favorite, for it's split fairway and possible birdie.  #16 is great for a bit of a dogleg.  Hope you can get it out there and down the hill.  If not, you've probably got a long iron and a ton of wind.  #17's punchbowl.  No comment necessary.


Weaker holes?  Maybe 13 and 15.  #13 is a straight shot up the hill, not much interest near the green.  #15 is a gentle slight dogleg left. Not bad, but you're not going to have to solve that puzzle...


I'm a big fan.  They've got it figured out.  SV is still needing a bit of growing in, but no biggie.  The lodges and facilities look incredible, and the quick glimpses of Kidd's course make you think it'll be notably better than the first.  Who knows.

[Tim Gavrich]

Not that I've been everywhere, but 17 is one of my favorite par 3s anywhere. I'd love to hit a small bucket of balls into that green and try different shots. I also thought 12's optional fairway works beautifully. 1 is a perfect intro hole because it introduces all the major themes of the course immediately.


Can't wait to return later this summer.

[Morgan Clawson]

How does it compare to other courses in the state, public and private?
The SV site is very unique and that makes it a bit difficult to compare to the others. 

I think it is less dramatic visually than Whistling Straights.  There are not as many forced carries and the course sits more softly on the land.  Trees are not/rearely in play at SV, so that makes it similar to Whistling, Erin, and Lawsonia  and very different that Blackwolf.

The routing is excellent.  The distance between holes is mostly short and the 18 hole journey seems natural.  The routing is better than Whistling and Blackwolf, and much better than Erin Hills. Lawsonia's routing might be better than SV's because it has really short tee to green walks, but it's not significantly different.

SV's terrain is near perfect with nice elevation changes without anything too dramatic.  It's similar to Lawsonia in that regard.

SV beats the others mentioned above with optional lines of play and unique mix of holes.

What works well, and what doesn't?
SV has it dialed-in and everything's working well at this point.

What are the best holes?
The last 3 holes on each 9 are the best par 3-4-5 combination on each side.

7 is an interesting par 5 with a windy tee shot, and a great centerline bunker that forces different lines of play on the 2nd shot. 8 is a short par 3 combining an uphill tee shot, wind at the green, a deep fronting bunker and a sneaky fast angled green. Exceptional short par 3 . 9 is a short par 4 with a downhill tee shot. The green is has 2 distinct tiers and sits beautifully between the base of a hill and a lake. Drivable by long hitters.

16 is a medium 4 with optional lines of play and interesting fairway undulations and kickplates.  The green has a cool sideboard on the left side that is fun to use. 17 is a long 3. The tee shot is uphill to a punchbowl green with lot of different sections. 18 is a long 5 that marches uphill past a massive bunker on the right.  The green is very big - maybe 50 yards deep.


What are the crappy holes?
I don't think any of the holes are crappy.  11 and 15 play on a semi flat section of the course and are therefore less interesting than the others.

How does it compare with other modern designs?
The quality of the courses and the terrain is somewhat similar to Streamsong.  Sand Valley's vibe is more laid-back and relaxed than Streamsong, which I prefer.  Sand Valley doesn't feel as epic to me as Bandon.  Maybe that's because there's not an ocean.  That said, it still has a very special feeling to it.  I'm not as well traveled as many, so hopefully others will chime in.

Or respond to a question that I didn't think to ask. Just talk about the golf course itself, please.
[/quote]

[Adam Lawrence]

Morgan


Interesting. My gut feel is that the property at SV is more dramatic than Bandon, if one ignores the effect of the ocean (which is basically impossible to do, but we must try anyway).


As to the golf course, I said to a friend a few days ago that I thought it was C&C's boldest (not _necessarily_ best) world since Sand Hills, though I noted that the time I hadn't seen Friar's Head, which I since have, and am still processing. Bill Coore told me months ago that it was by some distance their 'biggest' course -- visually I mean -- and that I think is certainly true. There is an epic feel about Sand Valley that I haven't seen anywhere else in the C&C portfolio.


The course itself I felt was extremely strong. There was a huge amount of variation. Take the par threes -- the third I felt was a rather Colty hole, helped by the presence in the sand barrens of a plant that can't be true heather but looks a hell of a lot like it (I must find out exactly what it is). Eight, a tiny little beauty over a horrible bunker to a beautiful infinity green. And then the seventeenth. The fact that it's huge isn't new -- Bill likes to include a very long par three on his courses -- but the scale of the hole, especially the cross bunker, and the punchbowl green -- wow.


I loved the par fives. The fourth is very stretchable, it could be a monster, and the feeding slope at the back of the green is super-cool. The seventh changes its character completely when you crest the rise, it changes from huge and open to quite compressed. Ten and twelve both have very good alternate routes. And eighteen teases you to try the carry over the right bunker with your second.


And the ninth is just a really lovely short four.

[Ryan Farrow]

Adam, that is Hudsonia tomentosa, also known as "beach heather" and native to the midwest. We first noticed its abundance near holes 3-11-13-14 but it has been sprouting up in areas that were were disturbed and left more sandy.   It is beautiful.

[Dan Moore]

To me the 3's and 5's really shine with the possible exception of 4. I think the par 5 7th is exceptional with its Hell's Half acre bunker up the right side and blind alternate fairway for the second shot to the left. The joy of playing the par 3 17th and par 5 18th holes will erase many earlier frustrations.

With respect to the par 3's, I think 3 was  more of a North Berwick inspired hole while the 14th was very much inspired by Sunningdale or Pine Valley.

If the 3's and 5's shine, the 4's present great variety.

Regarding the par 4's. One is a great handshake of a starting hole. Two ups the ante with angles off the tee, a deceptive bunker far left of the green, and a bold drop off right of the green. Five also features interesting angles and visuals off the tee and a boldly tiered valley green. The ninth is an exceptional short par 4 with a green that will lead to much cursing. On the back, eleven is a strong hole. To me 13th lacks definition off the tee but has a great, falsely fronted skyline green. Fifteen has one of the largest and most remarkable greens on the course, fronted by a set of mounds that will complicate many an approach shot. Sixteen is a very strong hole that requires your best off the tee, mentally and physically, complemented by another beautiful green.

Having seen the property evolve over three years from wall to wall trees to today, the transformation has been simply amazing. The vastness of the features and visuals may be the most notable characteristic. You can't believe you are in the Midwest. I've been saying for awhile that taming the external visuals will be an important part of making the course work. The constant evolution of the dunes and landscapes that surround the holes, the restoration of the natural landscape of those areas, and the Keiser's and Craig Haltoms's early recognition and appreciation of that restoration process has been and will continue to be a key to the project.

And I love the fact Lawsonia is only 75 minutes away!!!

[John Kavanaugh]

Per Matt Ward: Could someone explain how a 6500 yd par 72 course could have a 70.7/126 rating and slope.

[Tom_Doak]

Per Matt Ward: Could someone explain how a 6500 yd par 72 course could have a 70.7/126 rating and slope.

That sounds very normal to me.  The Slope should not be very high as the course is wider than wide and there's no o.b. or water ... only the elevation changes and the contours of the greens are going to keep it north of an average course.

[Peter Pallotta]

Interestingly, the course that is the answer to every question ever asked on gca.com - ie the Old at St. A - has a rating of 71.4 from the 6400 yard yellow tees, and a slope of 129. No elevation changes, no water, a bit of OB, not particularly contoured greens, and plenty of width. How does it manage playability with greater than average challenge? Bunkers? Angles?

[Adam Lawrence]

Interestingly, the course that is the answer to every question ever asked on gca.com - ie the Old at St. A - has a rating of 71.4 from the 6400 yard yellow tees, and a slope of 129. No elevation changes, no water, a bit of OB, not particularly contoured greens, and plenty of width. How does it manage playability with greater than average challenge? Bunkers? Angles?

'Not particularly contoured greens'?

[John Kavanaugh]

I was looking at Bandon Trails where at even 6,250 yds the rating is above par. Overall I would say BT is rated 1.5 strokes higher.

[Eric Smith]

Interestingly, the course that is the answer to every question ever asked on gca.com - ie the Old at St. A - has a rating of 71.4 from the 6400 yard yellow tees, and a slope of 129. No elevation changes, no water, a bit of OB, not particularly contoured greens, and plenty of width. How does it manage playability with greater than average challenge? Bunkers? Angles?

To further the discussion, my last round on the Old Course, I:


Chunked two wedges into the water on #1. Nerves of steel!


Hit it just over the OB wall right on #14. Right, right(?), FBD!


3 putted a number of times.

[Tom_Doak]

I was looking at Bandon Trails where at even 6,250 yds the rating is above par. Overall I would say BT is rated 1.5 strokes higher.

Bandon Trails is windier, and tighter.  But that should influence the slope more than the course rating.


Then again, the 300-yard 14th at Bandon Trails can add 1.5 shots to a medal round all by itself.  There's nothing that severe at Sand Valley, from what I saw of it.

[John Kavanaugh]

The low rating is a good thing in my book. Nothing worse than playing an over simplified resort set up and shooting an artificially low score. Golf has to be careful not to become just another feel good activity.

[BCowan]

The low rating is a good thing in my book. Nothing worse than playing an over simplified resort set up and shooting an artificially low score. Golf has to be careful not to become just another feel good activity.

It's too late

[Phil McDade]

Interestingly, the course that is the answer to every question ever asked on gca.com - ie the Old at St. A - has a rating of 71.4 from the 6400 yard yellow tees, and a slope of 129. No elevation changes, no water, a bit of OB, not particularly contoured greens, and plenty of width. How does it manage playability with greater than average challenge? Bunkers? Angles?

Peter:


If you hit a fade that tends to slice, esp. in the wind, The Old Course feels tighter than tight. As the great John Daly said, you can hit it left there all day long....but not right.


Most of the greens have significant contours or tilts, and there are some nasty false fronts or depressions on the front of some greens.

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