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Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #325 on: April 28, 2017, 12:12:52 PM »
The caller/emailer should be publically identified. If the person who ratted on Lexi thought they would be outed, chances are they would not have exposed themselves  to the abuse and embarrassment that would likely result. Do that a couple of times and the problem will evaporate.
That's only a "solution" if you think it's a "problem."

Erik...my logic makes perfect sense if pay attention.
It does not. Lexi is responsible for knowing and following the rules, so "ignorance" is not a valid reason to say that "the scorecard was correct when she signed it." The scorecard was NOT correct when she signed it.

Logic is built upon facts and you're ignoring certain facts.

1. Is the penalty calling system the same for all golfers.  The answer is an emphatic no. TV replay should be used for all golfers equally or not at all. This is quite a basic concept in reffing/umping sports...all contestants are treated equally.
That's pure fantasy. The leaders often benefit by being on TV and having larger crowds. They also play later in the day when the greens are less smooth. There's absolutely no way to legislate "fairness" across the board.

2. Should penalties be called after the start of play the next day?  The answer should be an emphatic no for obvious reasons.
It's a 72-hole competition. The answer is an emphatic yes for obvious reasons.

3. Should a 2 shot penalty be tacked on for signing a wrong card when a penalty wasn't called prior to the card being signed.  The answer should be an emphatic no for obvious reasons.
Yes, again, the scorecard was wrong when she signed it. She earned a two-stroke penalty when she breached the rules, not when she was made aware of the breach.

She deserved 2 shots as she broke a rule - but 4 shots I agree is harsh and would not stand up in any court as it was not an incorrect card at the time she signed it and only became incorrect by the actions of the rules officials afterward.
Read the bold above. She incurred the penalty strokes - whether she knew it or not - when she played from the wrong place.

I'm not sure which side of that question I'm on but your question begs the question..."why should the end of the tournament be the line drawn"?
Because it's practical. And of course, in the instance of actual cheating, there is no deadline.

+10 to Michael Felton's entire reply.

By the way how would you handle being told in the middle of the following round of a major that you were being assessed a 4 stroke penalty from the previous day based on a TV viewer's phone call or email?
I'd be very disappointed in myself.


I know ( for I, like you, witnessed it) Lexi's ball was replaced a 1/12th of inch from what I saw was its original spot.
Lexi's ball was at least 0.7" from where it was originally, about one second before.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #326 on: April 28, 2017, 01:10:40 PM »
The caller/emailer should be publically identified. If the person who ratted on Lexi thought they would be outed, chances are they would not have exposed themselves  to the abuse and embarrassment that would likely result. Do that a couple of times and the problem will evaporate.
That's only a "solution" if you think it's a "problem."

Erik...my logic makes perfect sense if pay attention.
It does not. Lexi is responsible for knowing and following the rules, so "ignorance" is not a valid reason to say that "the scorecard was correct when she signed it." The scorecard was NOT correct when she signed it.

Logic is built upon facts and you're ignoring certain facts.

1. Is the penalty calling system the same for all golfers.  The answer is an emphatic no. TV replay should be used for all golfers equally or not at all. This is quite a basic concept in reffing/umping sports...all contestants are treated equally.
That's pure fantasy. The leaders often benefit by being on TV and having larger crowds. They also play later in the day when the greens are less smooth. There's absolutely no way to legislate "fairness" across the board.

2. Should penalties be called after the start of play the next day?  The answer should be an emphatic no for obvious reasons.
It's a 72-hole competition. The answer is an emphatic yes for obvious reasons.

3. Should a 2 shot penalty be tacked on for signing a wrong card when a penalty wasn't called prior to the card being signed.  The answer should be an emphatic no for obvious reasons.
Yes, again, the scorecard was wrong when she signed it. She earned a two-stroke penalty when she breached the rules, not when she was made aware of the breach.

She deserved 2 shots as she broke a rule - but 4 shots I agree is harsh and would not stand up in any court as it was not an incorrect card at the time she signed it and only became incorrect by the actions of the rules officials afterward.
Read the bold above. She incurred the penalty strokes - whether she knew it or not - when she played from the wrong place.

I'm not sure which side of that question I'm on but your question begs the question..."why should the end of the tournament be the line drawn"?
Because it's practical. And of course, in the instance of actual cheating, there is no deadline.

+10 to Michael Felton's entire reply.

By the way how would you handle being told in the middle of the following round of a major that you were being assessed a 4 stroke penalty from the previous day based on a TV viewer's phone call or email?
I'd be very disappointed in myself.


I know ( for I, like you, witnessed it) Lexi's ball was replaced a 1/12th of inch from what I saw was its original spot.
Lexi's ball was at least 0.7" from where it was originally, about one second before.

Jepers Erik, I wouldn't want you as my judge.  To blame a person for signing an incorrect card when the ruling wasn't made for another 20ish hours after the card was signed is not only harsh, it is wholly unreasonable.  The sort of thing which makes people scoff at the game and righfully so.  While I understand the penalty followed the rules and once it was decided to call the penalty all that followed must occur. However, I also understand that people are fallible and therefore rules made by people are fallible.  There is no doubt at all that this is one of those times when the rules failed to provide a fair and reasonable result. 

I do believe at least one of two things will occur in the near future. 

1. Rulings will be made much more expediently so as to mitigate the chaos factor.

2. Unless intent can be a reasonable dedution of the actions resulting in a penalty, the 2 shot penalty for signing an incorrect card after a very late ruling will be waived or perhaps eliminated from the rules.  Its quite obvious what occurs now is completely unacceptable to a huge percentage of golfers. 

If tournaments are indeed 72 hole events, why can't a competitor sign one time after 72 holes?  It is inconsistent to treat each round as a separate game for scoring, but not for calling penalties.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:28:00 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCowan

Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #327 on: April 28, 2017, 01:27:03 PM »
The sort of thing which makes people scoff at the game and righfully so

Rubbish.  Golf is a great game and one of which should be played properly.  You are insinuating that beginners won't play Golf because of this ruling, which is nonsense.  We don't need em anyway, we need to take care of the ones already playing.   
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 01:33:34 PM by Ben Cowan (Michigan) »

Mark Kiely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #328 on: April 28, 2017, 01:40:25 PM »
Jepers Erik, I wouldn't want you as my judge.  To blame a person for signing an incorrect card when the ruling wasn't made for another 20ish hours after the card was signed is not only harsh, it is wholly unreasonable.


I'd contend the point you're missing is that there shouldn't have been a need for a ruling. She should have replaced her ball correctly. Barring that, she should have recognized that she did not replace her ball correctly and called a penalty on herself. Only because of those two failings was there a need for a ruling. To her misfortune, the ruling came after she'd vouched for her score by signing her third round scorecard, so there is an additional repercussion of two strokes. Wholly reasonable.


Nothing "happened" to Lexi. She did this herself.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #329 on: April 28, 2017, 07:10:00 PM »
I've been listening to PGA Tour Radio the last few days and nearly all of he hosts and callers bring up how "unfifair" it is that only a few of the players are on camera, getting their actions scrutinized.


One of two things has to be true here.


Either, golf is a game of honor and almost no one is committing infractions out of the view of he camera, or:


This "Game of Honor," stuff is bullshit and the cameras are missing a lot of infractions.


In order for their argument to be valid, that second statement has to be true. Personally, thnk the first statement is closer to the truth, and fairness is a red herring.


K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #330 on: April 28, 2017, 07:23:03 PM »

BCowan

Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #331 on: April 28, 2017, 07:36:41 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-QNKZr2leg


If you were an attorney that would be a bad argument.


Not even close, Pat already mentioned variables which I believe are in line with my post.  2 footers aren't garentees.  I'd never be an attorney. 

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #332 on: April 28, 2017, 08:32:00 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-QNKZr2leg


If you were an attorney that would be a bad argument.


Not even close, Pat already mentioned variables which I believe are in line with my post.  2 footers aren't garentees.  I'd never be an attorney.


I'm just not buying it Ben. No way. So a 1 foot 11 3/4" putt is so much easier that she would risk the penalty? It makes no sense.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #333 on: April 28, 2017, 09:50:12 PM »
Jepers Erik, I wouldn't want you as my judge.  To blame a person for signing an incorrect card when the ruling wasn't made for another 20ish hours after the card was signed is not only harsh, it is wholly unreasonable.


I'd contend the point you're missing is that there shouldn't have been a need for a ruling. She should have replaced her ball correctly. Barring that, she should have recognized that she did not replace her ball correctly and called a penalty on herself. Only because of those two failings was there a need for a ruling. To her misfortune, the ruling came after she'd vouched for her score by signing her third round scorecard, so there is an additional repercussion of two strokes. Wholly reasonable.


Nothing "happened" to Lexi. She did this herself.

Mark

If there is no need for rulings why have rules officials?  Once again, it can't be both ways.  Once decisions are taken out of the hands of players then the rulings must be done in a timely fashion which recently existed. The question isn't who is to blame.  We all know Lexi broke a rule.  The questions are

1. What should the penalty be

2. How should penalties be detected

3. Should a player be penalized for signing a wrong card when the ruling which made her score inaccurate was delivered hoplessly late.

All I hear from half the folks (who very much remind me of The Queen of Hearts...no matter the crime...off with her head) is she broke a rule so whatever fate befalls her is deserved.  Sorry, this is nonsense. Rules exists to ensure fairly contested tournaments.  That means the rules need to be applied equally and consistently.  It is blantantly obvious that with the use of tv and taking random calls that this isn't the case.


Golf is completely out of whack with any other sport in how their rules infraction detections systems work...and it is causing the expected problems of uncertainty in the equal application of the rules and the reasonable expectation that rulings are made in timely manner. I fail to understand how these basic problems haven't been acknolwedged by a ton of readers on this thread. 

Mark my words, the rules will continue to be changed because of tv and the nutty concept of signing a card which is accurate one day, but not the next...because rulings are not delivered in a timely manner.  I will never buy the nonsense of catching someone out so long as its done prior to the 72 hole window.  If a signature is required every day, then rulings should be made on the day the card is signed.  It cannot be fair game to require a daily signature for accuracy, yet that accuracy can be challenged for a 72 hole window.  It makes no sense, doesn't actually serve a purpose and actually causes unnecessary problems with tournament adminstration. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 09:54:08 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #334 on: April 28, 2017, 10:46:12 PM »
To blame a person for signing an incorrect card when the ruling wasn't made for another 20ish hours after the card was signed is not only harsh, it is wholly unreasonable.
This is where you get it wrong: the scorecard was wrong when she signed it. She breached the rule, and incurred the penalty then. It is HER RESPONSIBILITY right then and there to add the penalty. Her card was never correct.

Your misunderstanding really almost starts and ends there. Until you can accept the logic and rationale behind that, you cannot really engage in a productive conversation here.

However, I also understand that people are fallible and therefore rules made by people are fallible.
Nobody's going to claim that the rules are perfect… but they exist for a reason, and the logic and rationale behind everything that occurred with Lexi makes sense.

There is no doubt at all that this is one of those times when the rules failed to provide a fair and reasonable result.
Two years ago it would have been a DQ. One of the principles is that the advantage gained should never be larger than the penalty given. Was her playing from the wrong place a two-stroke advantage, or even a 1.1-stroke advantage? No. But you can't make rules like that, with checklists to see how much of an advantage is gained. There are times when playing from a wrong place is worth 1.5 or 1.9 strokes or something, so the penalty is two strokes.

Then her second infraction is worth two strokes, and she's only not DQed because we give her a little benefit of the doubt that she had a brain fart and didn't notice that she breached the rules.

That penalty cannot really be reduced without basically telling everyone who plays golf "so long as it's believable that you didn't know… go ahead and don't include possible penalties on your card, because there's no downside to being caught later."

I do believe at least one of two things will occur in the near future. 

1. Rulings will be made much more expediently so as to mitigate the chaos factor.
They made the ruling within an hour of being notified of the possible breach. How much more quickly could they do it?

2. Unless intent can be a reasonable dedution of the actions resulting in a penalty, the 2 shot penalty for signing an incorrect card after a very late ruling will be waived or perhaps eliminated from the rules.  Its quite obvious what occurs now is completely unacceptable to a huge percentage of golfers. 
Fortunately, the Rules of Golf are not written based on popular vote!

The rules consider intent already. Again, two years ago, whether you meant it or not, you were DQed. They softened it to two strokes, but you can still be DQed if they believe you intended to cheat.

I'd be very, very disappointed in the rules committees at the USGA/R&A if they removed the penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard. I don't think it'll happen. The players are responsible for knowing and following the rules. Remove the two-stroke penalty or DQ and what's the incentive to try to put in an accurate score?

If tournaments are indeed 72 hole events, why can't a competitor sign one time after 72 holes?  It is inconsistent to treat each round as a separate game for scoring, but not for calling penalties.
That's not practical. Your markers may have missed the cut and gone home, and scores need to be vouched for in order to MAKE cut lines and so on.

You're drastically over-reacting to something that doesn't happen very often.

If there is no need for rulings why have rules officials?  Once again, it can't be both ways.  Once decisions are taken out of the hands of players then the rulings must be done in a timely fashion which recently existed.
When did it "recently exist"?

And what are you talking about, "both ways." When the player fails to enforce the rules themselves, the rules officials have to step in. The rest of the time, rules officials are there to assist and inform. They're not there to watch players like hawks.

The questions are

1. What should the penalty be

2. How should penalties be detected

3. Should a player be penalized for signing a wrong card when the ruling which made her score inaccurate was delivered hoplessly late.
We have answers to all of those questions right now. They're good answers, and answers that have been arrived at after decades of these or similar rules.

1. I think the penalties we have now are good. There's logic behind them. The 2019 proposed rules mostly make sense, too.
2. By the players. It's their responsibility to police themselves. Sometimes, though, they fail, and thus in order to conduct the most accurate truthful competition, the rules committee must consider information from any available source.
3. The scorecard was wrong when she signed it.

Mark my words, the rules will continue to be changed because of tv and the nutty concept of signing a card which is accurate one day, but not the next
The scorecard was wrong when she signed it.

And there have been call-in rules infractions since 1957. Or 1987 with Craig Stadler. Only recently was the two-stroke penalty for penalties you didn't "know" you incurred added. What makes you think they're going to change them again?

And again, what's the incentive to police yourself if you can't be penalized more than the initial penalty you incurred?

If a signature is required every day, then rulings should be made on the day the card is signed.
And if they're not… you'd rather see someone win a tournament despite video evidence of a clear breach of the rules? The winner probably wouldn't even want that.

It cannot be fair game to require a daily signature for accuracy, yet that accuracy can be challenged for a 72 hole window.  It makes no sense, doesn't actually serve a purpose and actually causes unnecessary problems with tournament adminstration.
It can. It does make sense. The reasons and logic have been shared and explained several times before.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #335 on: April 29, 2017, 05:29:52 AM »
Erik

Your first sentence tells it all.  It is very plausible that a person may not realize they broke the rule in question.  You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter.  IMO, that is an unreasonable position to take so far as incurring the 2nd penalty.  It all adds up to a 4 shot penalty which rules gurus justify by saying two rules were broken.  My opinion is that a 4 shot penalty issued on the back 9 of a later round for misplacing a ball by less than half an inch based on a call in using tv is uniquivocally wrong. 

There isn't much point in carrying on.  Your argument boils down to the rules are good because they are the rules.  You are looking at the small picture, I am looking at the big picture and continue to believe the rules need a complete overhaul.  I will never be convinced

1. the second infraction deserved a 2 shot penalty
2. that a ruling decision made while playing a later round is reasonable execution of rules
3. that rules using tv evidence can be applied randomly  and be deemed fair
4. that is reasonable to force a player to sign for a card, then produce the evidence during a later round to call a penalty

So far as changing the rules, it doesn't matter to me either way.  I am not that guy who will hover around looking for infractions.  I don't have that much more time left on this earth  8)  This is has merely been a bit of banter.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:02:32 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #336 on: April 29, 2017, 08:38:14 AM »
Your first sentence tells it all.  It is very plausible that a person may not realize they broke the rule in question.
It's entirely plausible that I was going 43 in a 35 zone today because I didn't realize the speed limit changed at 23rd and Wabash. I still broke the law (hypothetically) at that moment. It's my responsibility as a citizen to follow the laws.


You seem to be saying that it doesn't matter.

It doesn't, Sean.


IMO, that is an unreasonable position to take so far as incurring the 2nd penalty.  It all adds up to a 4 shot penalty which rules gurus justify by saying two rules were broken.  My opinion is that a 4 shot penalty issued on the back 9 of a later round for misplacing a ball by less than half an inch based on a call in using tv is uniquivocally wrong.

It's accurate to call it two two-stroke penalties. Just because you can't follow the logic doesn't mean the logic is not there.

Players are responsible for knowing and following the rules. The "wrong scorecard" rule is there to incentivize people to know and follow the rules in order to write down an accurate, correct score, including penalties.

Remove that additional penalty and there's no downside to "accidentally" forgetting or "not knowing" that you incurred a penalty for improving your lie in the rough on that one hole (or whatever) and only paying for that penalty if you're caught. There's no downside to cheating so long as you can reasonably claim it was a mistake, and unknown to you at that time.

There isn't much point in carrying on.  Your argument boils down to the rules are good because they are the rules.

Just above, I repeated some of the logic behind these rules being the way they are. Others have shared the reasoning and logic as well. You're wrong, and I've not seen anyone say "the rules are good because they're the rules."


You are looking at the small picture, I am looking at the big picture and continue to believe the rules need a complete overhaul.

No, and just because you say something doesn't make it true.


I will never be convinced

Good of you to admit that you're incredibly close minded. I mean, you probably said that as a way of re-inforcing your convictions, but… I'd never say that. I'd change my mind if someone presented a good argument. You've not done so. You think that Lexi should wait for penalties to be called on her, but only before she's signed her card or something…

1. the second infraction deserved a 2 shot penalty
2. that a ruling decision made while playing a later round is reasonable execution of rules
3. that rules using tv evidence can be applied randomly and be deemed fair
4. that is reasonable to force a player to sign for a card, then produce the evidence during a later round to call a penalty

You seem to have a problem with personal integrity and the concept that players are responsible for knowing and following the rules of golf.

That's what your position boils down to.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 08:40:11 AM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #337 on: April 29, 2017, 09:36:53 AM »
I have been reading this thread for quite a while.


I think Thompson broke a rule when she replaced her ball improperly to the left of where it had been. Not nearer the hole, but still in the wrong place. I have no idea if there was intent – I have ESPN, but not ESP – but can't see how she bollixed it up so thoroughly, but she did. Two strokes it would be. (Then comes the hornet's nest of the scorecard penalty, on which I can see each side's argument.)


But I have two questions. Erik, are you as sure of your stand on things when you're standing in front of people? If so, how often do you get punched in the nose?


Cheers, everyone. And don't mark, putt!
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #338 on: April 29, 2017, 02:28:17 PM »
But I have two questions. Erik, are you as sure of your stand on things when you're standing in front of people? If so, how often do you get punched in the nose?
Yes, and never.  :)  Writing lacks tone, as you know. I also suspect I'll never really understand how personally offended some people are by a difference of opinion.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:31:13 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #339 on: April 29, 2017, 05:44:41 PM »
But I have two questions. Erik, are you as sure of your stand on things when you're standing in front of people? If so, how often do you get punched in the nose?
Yes, and never.  :)  Writing lacks tone, as you know. I also suspect I'll never really understand how personally offended some people are by a difference of opinion.

I'm surprised it took this long considering Erik's track record on his own website and forum which he moderates (dictates).

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #340 on: April 29, 2017, 06:10:49 PM »
 8)  Just too bad Lexi doesn't have some inanimate object to blame... like stads did after his infamous built stance to keep his pants dry





[/size]
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:18:26 PM by Steve Lang »
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Pat Burke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #341 on: April 29, 2017, 09:40:52 PM »
FYI, I'm pretty much siding with Erik throughout.
Believe the rule Lexi broke is pretty standard understanding as a professional golfer.


I have also seen it broken down from the original video, as well a screenshot close ups.
Her mark and remark of the ball, Imo (yes opinion) was worse than anything I have seen from a top tour professional.
Only a couple others Ive seen that were close.


Theres a lot of blaming of the witness for testifying about the crime.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #342 on: April 30, 2017, 05:11:55 AM »
Pat

I guess we either look at the rules in a manner which gives the player the benefit of the doubt or not.  To me, the rule infraction is clear. What is unclear is why the penalty for breaking that rule is doubled or not depending on when it was discovered/reported/ruled upon (and despite what strict rules disciples say...this is what happens)...especially as the player is forced to sign a card after a round. Some people seem to think the 2 shot penalty is not enough to ensure players remain honest....that to me is a very odd opinion.  TV is playing a major role in outing the flawed rule, but it could also be a vindictive player that would like nothing more than to see 2 shots tacked on to the penalty. IMO, the possibility of this happening or by using random tv interference, leaves the game open to disrepute and fails to protect the field. 

I would have no problem with late calls causing a 2 shot penalty should tv be used consistently and equally to make rulings, though if a system like were in place I can't fathom why a rules infraction would be called the next day (which is the point of a proper system being in place).  I think most players would own to incurring a penalty when a slow mow is shown. 

It makes no sense to me that a 72 hole event is broken down to 18 hole sections for the purposes of some rules, but not other rules. 

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 05:32:32 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #343 on: April 30, 2017, 05:32:05 AM »
http://seoulsisters.freeforums.net/thread/1551/thompson-assessed-stroke-penalty-championship?page=11


Anyone see the picture here from the LPGA event in Thailand a month ago. Maybe she doesn't know she is doing it but looks like the same thing to me.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 05:37:46 AM by Mike_Clayton »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #344 on: April 30, 2017, 08:44:48 AM »
Sean

The motives of whoever is reporting the "infringement" is neither here nor there, the real issue is whether it was an infringement and indeed in this incident whether or not it was cheating. What is shocking to me is that there seems to be a group of people that seem reluctant to address the cheating issue, however distasteful it is to have to do that. To not address that issue does the game the biggest dis-service imaginable.

Ken M referred in an earlier post to whether the game of golf was one of integrity. I believe it is although I recognise that not all participants live up to that lofty ideal. Where we fall down is not holding those people to account where we can. This is an example where perhaps "we" could have done that. "We" meaning the relevant golfing authority. That might seem harsh on Lexi Thomson but she seems a bright, intelligent person and I think she would gain a lot more respect if she addressed the issue herself and held her hand up to what she did. As it is she seems content to play hard done by. I can only imagine that as a result she will forever have a question mark against her which is a great shame.

Niall

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #345 on: April 30, 2017, 09:07:56 AM »
http://seoulsisters.freeforums.net/thread/1551/thompson-assessed-stroke-penalty-championship?page=11


Anyone see the picture here from the LPGA event in Thailand a month ago. Maybe she doesn't know she is doing it but looks like the same thing to me.
Three times this has happened?  It is hard not to conclude that she is cheating.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #346 on: April 30, 2017, 09:18:16 AM »
The caller/emailer should be publically identified. If the person who ratted on Lexi thought they would be outed, chances are they would not have exposed themselves  to the abuse and embarrassment that would likely result. Do that a couple of times and the problem will evaporate.
That's only a "solution" if you think it's a "problem."

Erik...my logic makes perfect sense if pay attention.
It does not. Lexi is responsible for knowing and following the rules, so "ignorance" is not a valid reason to say that "the scorecard was correct when she signed it." The scorecard was NOT correct when she signed it.

Logic is built upon facts and you're ignoring certain facts.

1. Is the penalty calling system the same for all golfers.  The answer is an emphatic no. TV replay should be used for all golfers equally or not at all. This is quite a basic concept in reffing/umping sports...all contestants are treated equally.
That's pure fantasy. The leaders often benefit by being on TV and having larger crowds. They also play later in the day when the greens are less smooth. There's absolutely no way to legislate "fairness" across the board.

2. Should penalties be called after the start of play the next day?  The answer should be an emphatic no for obvious reasons.
It's a 72-hole competition. The answer is an emphatic yes for obvious reasons.

3. Should a 2 shot penalty be tacked on for signing a wrong card when a penalty wasn't called prior to the card being signed.  The answer should be an emphatic no for obvious reasons.
Yes, again, the scorecard was wrong when she signed it. She earned a two-stroke penalty when she breached the rules, not when she was made aware of the breach.

She deserved 2 shots as she broke a rule - but 4 shots I agree is harsh and would not stand up in any court as it was not an incorrect card at the time she signed it and only became incorrect by the actions of the rules officials afterward.
Read the bold above. She incurred the penalty strokes - whether she knew it or not - when she played from the wrong place.

I'm not sure which side of that question I'm on but your question begs the question..."why should the end of the tournament be the line drawn"?
Because it's practical. And of course, in the instance of actual cheating, there is no deadline.

+10 to Michael Felton's entire reply.

By the way how would you handle being told in the middle of the following round of a major that you were being assessed a 4 stroke penalty from the previous day based on a TV viewer's phone call or email?
I'd be very disappointed in myself.


I know ( for I, like you, witnessed it) Lexi's ball was replaced a 1/12th of inch from what I saw was its original spot.
Lexi's ball was at least 0.7" from where it was originally, about one second before.


If tournaments are indeed 72 hole events, why can't a competitor sign one time after 72 holes?  It is inconsistent to treat each round as a separate game for scoring, but not for calling penalties.

Ciao


That is a very interesting idea Sean.
While I'd prefer rounds be "closed" after signing (Like running a new play in football) your idea is another way to approach and quite logical.
Doesn't eliminate the callers but at least eliminates double jeopardy (but the double jeopardy-2 shots- is a change from the old rule where you were simply DQed)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #347 on: April 30, 2017, 09:36:02 AM »
I guess we either look at the rules in a manner which gives the player the benefit of the doubt or not.
Lexi was given the benefit of the doubt. If they'd have thought she was cheating, she'd have been DQed.

You cannot weigh every decision in enforcing the rules on whether it "seems" right or not, or whether the player deserves some benefit of the doubt. The best rules tend to be the very clear, black-or-white ones without much of a grey area at all. Either you did or didn't. Lexi did.

And again, the benefit is why she got only two strokes and not a DQ.


What is unclear is why the penalty for breaking that rule is doubled or not depending on when it was discovered/reported/ruled upon (and despite what strict rules disciples say...this is what happens)...especially as the player is forced to sign a card after a round. Some people seem to think the 2 shot penalty is not enough to ensure players remain honest....that to me is a very odd opinion.  TV is playing a major role in outing the flawed rule, but it could also be a vindictive player that would like nothing more than to see 2 shots tacked on to the penalty. IMO, the possibility of this happening or by using random tv interference, leaves the game open to disrepute and fails to protect the field.


If you don't breach the rules, you've got nothing to worry about.

And if you think the LPGA Tour gals are paying people (or taking the time themselves) to pore over video footage to see if they could belatedly call an infraction on people… then I don't know what to tell you.

While I'd prefer rounds be "closed" after signing (Like running a new play in football) your idea is another way to approach and quite logical.Doesn't eliminate the callers but at least eliminates double jeopardy (but the double jeopardy-2 shots- is a change from the old rule where you were simply DQed)

Keep reading… the idea was shown very quickly to be impractical and not at all a way to conduct a competition with groupings, a cut, etc.

And if players don't want to be subject to double jeopardy… they can write down the proper score!

I'm still not sure how people see this as all that different than Chella Choi: http://www.golfchannel.com/video/bad-mark-choi-withdraws-after-penalty-canadian-pacific/ ? Jane Blaylock was suspended for mis-marking and replacing the ball decades ago, no? Phil says he knows guys who do it all the time…
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

jeffwarne

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #348 on: April 30, 2017, 09:53:37 AM »
Erik,
What exactly is impractical about closing a round after signing the card?
Not saying it's the only way to go, just curious of the pros and cons.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 10:58:37 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

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Re: LPGA ruling - now this is ridiculous
« Reply #349 on: April 30, 2017, 09:54:43 AM »
Sean

The motives of whoever is reporting the "infringement" is neither here nor there, the real issue is whether it was an infringement and indeed in this incident whether or not it was cheating. What is shocking to me is that there seems to be a group of people that seem reluctant to address the cheating issue, however distasteful it is to have to do that. To not address that issue does the game the biggest dis-service imaginable.

Ken M referred in an earlier post to whether the game of golf was one of integrity. I believe it is although I recognise that not all participants live up to that lofty ideal. Where we fall down is not holding those people to account where we can. This is an example where perhaps "we" could have done that. "We" meaning the relevant golfing authority. That might seem harsh on Lexi Thomson but she seems a bright, intelligent person and I think she would gain a lot more respect if she addressed the issue herself and held her hand up to what she did. As it is she seems content to play hard done by. I can only imagine that as a result she will forever have a question mark against her which is a great shame.

Niall

Niall

Agree with you, however that doesn't address the problems as I see them.  Rules authorities can't control if a player calls a penalty on the spot or if indeed a rules official with the group calls a penalty on the spot.  Rules authorities can control when and how tv is used to call penalties and they can control what consequences there are for being guilty of an infraction when called after a card is signed. 

I wouldn't even mind DQing a player if guilty of an infraction more than once in a certain period of time.  What I do dislike is tagging an extra 2 shots for signing an incorrect card when in fact, by the rules, that round isn't closed if penalties can be called the next day.  It shouldn't work both ways.  Either a line is drawn under a round or isn't. If a line isn't drawn under a round (which is the case if penalties can't be called until the competition ends), what is the point of requiring a signature prior to the last day?  The over-riding principle in calling infractions should be the ideals of consistency and equality.  We all know that no two groups or rules officials are equal and therefore how they administer the rules is inherently inconsistent and unequal....it has been this way since the beginning of competitve golf.  However, we can get the tv aspect much closer to the ideals, yet for some reasons golf fails to do so. This is what irks me.  I could care less about the actual Lexigate situation...it is a symptom of a greater problem.   

Jeff

I agree with you, its tidier to close the rounds each day, but in fact that isn't the case, is it?  With tv used to call penalties, I don't think its possible to draw a line under each day's play when a card is signed.  The rule makers are in a tight spot with this one because for some odd reason, people accept imperfection in all sports, except for golf.  I would argue that golf is no different and the expectation of perfection in rule calling is not only unrealistic, its foolish.  Golf is simply setting itself up to fail, which it does too often at the highest levels. There are no easy answers to this issue.  Maybe it should be a simple solution of an automatic DQ if an infraction is found to have occurred (another bifurcation difference in the rules?) regardless of when it was discovered. The grey areas are removed and everybody is treated consistently and equally assuming the use of tv to examine play is applied consistently and equally.  I would much prefer that to the current random system of calling penalties which isn't getting the job done in a way which is remotely consistent or equal.  I can't understand why the severity of the penalty is different depending on when an infraction was discovered. Justifying the double penalty by claiming two separate infractions were committed is a poor approach to making rules.

Erik

This is the worst possible argument because it justifies those in authority doing anything they wish.  It is the very definition of the rules are good because they are the rules.

If you don't breach the rules, you've got nothing to worry about.

Ciao 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 10:27:36 AM by Sean_A »
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