Should Mike Keiser be in the Hall of Fame?

[Niall C]

Well said Sean. Hall of Fames are kind of a newish innovation in the UK and seem to have been met with a (healthy) degree of indifference. It seems to me that if someone has the status/reputation/achievements to merit entry to the HoF then membership doesn't really add to their standing, therefore what are they other than a nice pat in the back for the recipient. Sort of like honorary degrees handed out by universities. Nice but not really an achievement.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Niall

That is not quite what I am saying.  I do think it is an achievement to be recognized by your peers (or anybody) as something special...which is why I think most would be honoured to be elected to a HoF.  If it isn't an honour for that person, he should request not to be elected.  There is no point in honouring someone that doesn't believe it is an achievement.  Bottom line, I don't care if anybody is in the HoF...it is down to that person to care and thats it.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Ask Doak if he cared about being elected to HoFs...I think he was elected to a Michigan one of some sort.  I bet he will say it was a cool honour even if he didn't give it much thought prior.  In other words, I bet he was honoured...which is the entire point.

Sean:  Exactly right.  I was surprised when a golf writer friend told me he had nominated me to the Michigan Golf Hall of Fame, and more surprised when he called back a couple months later to tell me I'd been chosen.  But it was quite nice to go downstate for the ceremony, attended by a bunch of people I've known since I moved here in 1986.


And I have always pooh-poohed the Hall of Fame concept, generally.  I am a huge baseball fan and it pains me to watch a bunch of self-important baseball writers tell me who was worthy of all the players I have watched over the past half century, as if all the rest of them were unimportant.  For sure, I got more enjoyment watching some players who are NOT in the Hall of Fame than from a lot of the guys who are, so the importance of such awards is vastly overstated ... just the same way that a golf course can be terrific even if it wasn't designed by a famous name.


The odd thing about being chosen for something like that while one is still "active" is that it puts a different perspective on things.  I'm not nearly as driven to get out and build more courses as I used to be.  But as Niall says, it's not really an achievement ... my work is my achievement, and like Mr. Keiser's contribution, it's still right there for people to enjoy and assess for themselves.  Famous players are more in need of such an honor, because once they've retired the memory of their brilliance fades quickly, and the next generation has no memories of their achievements to rely on.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Tom--


Beautifully put in your last paragraph, bit I think there may be more to it.  I think part of the reason for HOF's is HISTORY, and telling future generations about how the game was built.


Starting about 20-30 years ago, a new golden age of golf architecture was conceived and born.  Folks like Doak and Coore have made major contributions to this new age, as had MK.  I think he belongs in not because he "needs" recognition, but because golfers decades from now need to understand and recognize his contributions to the game.


Paul

[V_Halyard]

Thinking a bit of a no brainer for MK into HOF
Bias Disclosure, big MK fan working on the Sand Valley Project.  Also a late-to-the game because my kid wanted to be Tiger, former Muny golfer who most recently sat on a private club leadership team that restored a sleeping classic Ross. I have blood on my hands, some still won't wash off.

I want to specifically use the Sand Valley project as my exhibit. Bandon and Cabot are obvious. On the surface, none of them made any sense. SV went against the MK formula, specifically, no ocean, no water within miles...There was however sand. Piles of sand, huge piles of sand. It is also within a 4 hour drive of roughly 15-Million people. This is a gateway drug to Coore-Crenshaw/DMK (And other players to be named later... TD?) I'm even resigned to exclude Michiganers who arguably don't need to travel across Lake Michigan to play world class public access tracks.  I'm defining this player pool to west of Lake Michigan; Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Chicago, Madison, Des Moines etc. Not many people can hop in the car and roll into Bandon within a few hours but you can get "Taste of Bandon/Sniff of Sand Hills" at Sand Valley.

Another important project aspect.  The area was previously one of the poorest counties in the State of Wisconsin. Sand Valley has ignited a depressed local economy with an unprecedented level of job creation, construction, hospitality, food, beverage and tourism revenue. We native Cheezheads love our beer, Green Bay Packers, Fish Frys and Golf. Again, gateway drug, SV is not officially open but has already sparked some percentage of follow-on NEW CUSTOMER bookings to Cabot and Bandon.  For consideration: I heard +1 Handicap plumber "looking to learn more about other courses this "Coore-Crenshaw fella" has done." (True Story that I will swear to under oath) Say it with me: "Coore-Crenshaw Fella".

There are some very nice public tracks within buddy trip striking range, Whistling, Lawsonia, a revamped Sentry World (Yeah I said it) and now US Open Famous Erin.  The net effect anchors a cluster of public golf that compounds rounds and revenue into a depressed area of the state and region. It is most definitely a Grow the Game Play (Do we still say that?) on an out of place piece of geology. Herb Kohler didn't casually launch another American Club course on Lake Michigan on a whim. MK and MKII are delivering a game growing game changer. The math will speak for itself.

In Closing: I vote Yes for MK into the HOF for taking multiple nonsensical geographical risks and making architectural investments into spectacular PUBLIC golf venues that on the surface, make absolutely no sense in an overbuilt collapsing golf market. As for him making money off the venture... Hope he makes a ton and builds more courses.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I get all the points.
Mike Keiser's contribution to golf is unmistakable.


But, he was not the first "money guy" to make an impact on the game.


My point is: Why now, not why him?


Should developers be in the HOF?
If so, then MK is a no-brainer.


But, what about the myriad others who came before him from Scotland to London to Long Island to Philly to Hilton Head to Florida to the Monterrey Peninsula?
 

[John Kavanaugh]

Let's get Marion Hollins in before we open the floodgates.

[Peter Pallotta]

Yes, MK should be in the HOF.

But not before Tom D and C&C .

It would be like giving Robert Evans a lifetime Oscar before Francis Coppola.

Sure, Evans 'produced' The Godfather, but Coppola actually made it, frame by frame and moment by moment.

Evans had/could get the money to finance the film, and the good taste and instincts to hire Coppola -- but Francis brought the skill and talent and vision that made the film great.

So sure, let the HOF honour money and good taste, but IMO it should honour talent and skill first.

[V_Halyard]

Yes, MK should be in the HOF.

But not before Tom D and C&C .

It would be like giving Robert Evans a lifetime Oscar before Francis Coppola.

Sure, Evans 'produced' The Godfather, but Coppola actually made it, frame by frame and moment by moment.

Evans had/could get the money to finance the film, and the good taste and instincts to hire Coppola -- but Francis brought the skill and talent and vision that made the film great.

So sure, let the HOF honour money and good taste, but IMO it should honour talent and skill first.

I don't disagree. They need not be mutually exclusive.  Along these lines, in addition to Best director, Best screenplay, Best actor, film producers are awarded Oscars for Best Picture alongside of the directors, actors, writer etc. IMHO, Keiser and Kohler are definitively golf-focused developers that have rolled the dice on building multi-course, public access golf properties on alien landscapes without real estate development attachments. The same can be said for Mosaic / Streamsong and the City of Tacoma / Chambers.  We can go back to Tufts/Pinehurst and NY State/Bethpage. Given this is GCA, I'm sure I will hear about many others. Looking forward to the list.
 
Point being, GCA would be within its mission and on-topic to recognize bold developers with the good architectural sense to hire the best to restore, promote and develop architecturally outstanding/adventuresome golf. This can be within the HOF or otherwise.

[Joel_Stewart]

After seeing the nominees for this year I'll submit the committee has missed the mark on Mike Keiser again.

[corey miller]

Mike K. is in my "personal Hall of fame" for giving my friend George Bahto such opportunity and recognition. 

[Wade Whitehead]

I'd rather see a longtime high school golf coach inducted.
Or a dedicated First Tee volunteer.
Or a pro at a nine holer who opens his course to juniors in the afternoons.
WW

[corey miller]

Though it has been attested that Mike Keiser is more of a gentleman....isn't it the equivalent of putting Jerry Jones and Bob Kraft in the NFL Hall of Fame?

[Lou_Duran]

I'd rather see a longtime high school golf coach inducted.
Or a dedicated First Tee volunteer.
Or a pro at a nine holer who opens his course to juniors in the afternoons.
WW

I have a completely different take, primarily because without courses, we don't have golf.  There are some 19k First Tee volunteers, 100k high schools, and many, many courses, public and private, which accommodate juniors through high schoolers. 

Golf developers risk a great deal of money, time, and prestige.  They are a very relative few.   And because human nature is sometimes very disappointing, they are more often lambasted than praised.  Mike Keiser seems to have an extraordinary track record and, in my book, he is a Hall of Famer.   

[Kalen Braley]

Though it has been attested that Mike Keiser is more of a gentleman....isn't it the equivalent of putting Jerry Jones and Bob Kraft in the NFL Hall of Fame?

Jerry Jones is already in...along with 13 other past owners.


So a big YES, Mike K would certainly be a good candidate for building great golf courses, not just the same old crap destinations that overcharge and under deliver.

[Garland Bayley]

Remember that time when MacKenzie, Doak, Ross, Coore, Travis, Strantz, RTJ1, MacDonald, Colt, RTJ2 ... put up their own money and built that great golf course?


Funny, neither do I.
...

CBM put up his own money and found other investors to found NGLA. So he found the land, organized the purchase, and built the course.

Close enough IMO.

[Gary Sato]

[quote ]  It was mentioned that Mr Keiser could be doing more and you also mentioned his legacy. As far as charitable giving is concerned , he has been a huge driving force with an organization that I also am involved in albeit at a different financial level , the WGA ESF . Mike has been the Chair of our Match Play Fundraiser for the last 6 yrs. It has raised several million dollars to increase the number of Evans Scholars in school from 820 to 1000. We have or will have new chapter houses at Oregon , U of Wash, Penn State, Kansas, and Notre Dame. His legacy will be all of the caddies who have received world class educations due to his vast generosity. At the end of the day , Mike Keiser has helped so many young caddies and their needy families- how can you even question his legacy?

I'm happy that this post was brought back.


Regarding the Evans Scholars program, I noticed Mike and his wife have contributed between $5 and $10 million and Bandon Dunes another $100,000.


His lifetime achievement to golf is off the charts. [/quote]

[cary lichtenstein]

I'm shocked anyone would critisize MK. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame

[Kalen Braley]

I'm shocked anyone would critisize MK. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame

Cary,  Couldn't agree more.  I can't think of any other developer aka money man who has done more for the game in terms of facilitating a great process to build awesome courses...and he ain't done yet.

[Paul Rudovsky]

The reason MK belongs in HOF (and the same applies to Dick Youngscap of Sand Hills GC) is that their vision was NECESSARY (bot not sufficient...they also needed architects like C-C and TD) to create the second golden age of golf architecture.  Before 1995, there was very little in the way of great architecture being done...I think because there was no decent land left around population centers.  Pete Dye is a genius because he court create something from zippo...first in the desert (Palm Desert etc.) the in swamps (TPC Players course). 


The vision of MK and Youngscap and the willingness to take major risks w their $$$ opened huge new areas to build great courses.  Probably no more important ingredient for a great course than "site selection"...the vast majority of great courses (as per almost anyone's "best" list) are located on great sites.

[Mike_Young]

Does anyone that should really be in any hall of fame really need a hall of fame?  Halls of Fame bring in members to sell tickets to the annual fundraiser to help keep the hall of fame in business. 

[Rich Goodale]

NO!


He promised golf as it used to be at Bandon and then back tracked once he found out how much money he could make by turning it into a Disney World resort.

[Kalen Braley]

NO!


He promised golf as it used to be at Bandon and then back tracked once he found out how much money he could make by turning it into a Disney World resort.

Rich,


I'm genuinely curious on this statement.  Can you list some specifics of what was changed/put in place to  make it Disney-ish??

[Garland Bayley]

NO!


He promised golf as it used to be at Bandon and then back tracked once he found out how much money he could make by turning it into a Disney World resort.

+1

A Disney resort targets kids and gives them what they want, and charges what the market will bear well  beyond what what is necessary to make a comfortable profit.

Replace kids with "retail golfer" (GMWAS), and you have Disney Oregon.

[Sven Nilsen]

NO!


He promised golf as it used to be at Bandon and then back tracked once he found out how much money he could make by turning it into a Disney World resort.

As short-sighted a comment as I've ever seen on this site.


The motto is "Golf as its meant to be," but go ahead and bastardize it for your purposes.  The way you phrase it leaves out any kind of forward-thinking.  Its that forward thinking that enabled the only year round links golf resort in the United States.  And we (and you specifically) haven't even gotten to his other projects.


If there was a golf hall of fame for developers, he is first ballot right behind Henry Flagler.  As it is, I'm still not sure exactly what the World Golf Hall of Fame is trying to encompass.


Your Disney comment echoes that of another [in]famous developer who once described the Bandon courses as toys.  I'll take the sustainable, natural courses built on ground meant for golf over the bulldozer extravaganzas replete with waterfalls any time.


Sven


PS - Garland, if you think Bandon is overly expensive, go pony up at Pinehurst, Pebble or Cabo for four days.  Bandon doesn't crack the top 10 on price for public golf in this country, but it certainly does on quality.