Is the 4th hole at Spyglass Hill one of RTJ's

[Patrick_Mucci]

greatest holes ?
 
Forget the view.
 
The "cape" like nature of the drive.
 
The diagonal 3 tiered green that falls away from the golfer.
 
The dune protecting the leading edge of the putting surface.
 
Has he designed a better par 4 ?
 
If so, which ones ?
 
Why hasn't this hole been copied ?

[Jeff Taylor]

#2 is no slouch but I really loved #4.

[Jon Cavalier]

I cannot remember ever playing a better RTJ-designed hole than 4 at Spyglass. It's utterly unique and a ton of fun.


An elevated view of the 4th from the 2nd green.



The view from the tee. The green is partially visible.



From the fairway, more of green comes into view.



The incredible multi-tiered, extremely narrow green, as seen from behind.



As seen from below, the green runs hard away from the angle of approach.



The 4th at Spyglass was by far my favorite on the course and lived up to every bit of its advanced billing. It would be worth the price of admission on its own, if that price weren't so high.

[Keith Phillips]

Fantastic hole, but looking at the photos makes me wonder...was the green always that narrow, or has it been shrunken by mowing practices in past decades...the penultimate photo shows a very wide collar plus much flattish rough inside the punchbowl?

[Josh Bills]

Fun hole, here is what it looked like in 2008.  Pretty similar, a little more green area and just less lush. 

[Rich Goodale]

Great to see you back, Pat.  Hope all is well.


As the to the question, 4 has always been one of my favorite holes at Spyglass (played it 20+ times), but 1, 2, 8, 11, 13, 14, and 17 are cool too.  Got my 1st hole in one on the 12th in 1979, but it's just an OK drop shot.  Haven't played many other RTJJr. courses in the past and don't really care too in the future.  He did a good job at a great site at Spyglass a long time ago.  That's enough for a man's life time's satisfaction.


Rich.

[Jaeger Kovich]

One of? I might make the case for it IS his best.


Although Waterloo might be the most RTJ of RTJ holes, and captures the essence of his "school" of design. I like the 4th at Spyglass better.

... Shout out to the super Bob Yeo, he is super passionate about trying to reconnect the golf and dunes in that part of the property!

[Jim Franklin]

#4 is his best hole he ever built. Case closed.

So much fun to play. I love the fall away green on the short hole and always get amused when my friends walk away with bogey and a stunned look on their face.

[Rob Marshall]

I played it about after all the ice plant was removed and thought it was an outstanding hole. Was it too penal when the existing rough was all ice plant?

[Kevin_Reilly]

From the wayback machine (2002), here is a good sampling of comments about the 4th green.


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=4410.1


I haven't played Spyglass since the ice plant was removed.

[Pat Burke]

Contrarian view only, because I really like the hole, but for me, it was a no thinking hole.
Layup to right center leaving a 90 to 110 shot to the hole.  The approach really challenged distance control, but there was no mystery to it, a little right of the hole most times, and the slopes worked for you.


Now, I'm not a customer either, the people that pay, really seem to like it, and don't care what I think!😄

[Joel_Stewart]

I played it about after all the ice plant was removed and thought it was an outstanding hole. Was it too penal when the existing rough was all ice plant?

Disagree. It's more of an effort by Fazio, Palmer and the Pebble Beach Company to pander to resort golfers.


I've always wondered about 2-5 at Spyglass.  Seems like Jones didn't move much dirt (sand) and the brilliance of the holes pays off.  Then you move into the trees and clay soil and it's totally man made. 


I'm told that the Pebble Beach Company is drawaing up plans to rebuild the clubhouse and switch the nines.

[Rob Marshall]

I played it about after all the ice plant was removed and thought it was an outstanding hole. Was it too penal when the existing rough was all ice plant?

Disagree. It's more of an effort by Fazio, Palmer and the Pebble Beach Company to pander to resort golfers.


I've always wondered about 2-5 at Spyglass.  Seems like Jones didn't move much dirt (sand) and the brilliance of the holes pays off.  Then you move into the trees and clay soil and it's totally man made. 


I'm told that the Pebble Beach Company is drawaing up plans to rebuild the clubhouse and switch the nines.

Not sure what you disagree with. I played it when there was no ice plant around the green. I'm throwing a question to all of those who played it when the green was surrounded by ice plant. Was it too Penal?

[Joel_Stewart]

The green wasn't surrounded by iceplant, just the entire left side.  The 3rd green was surrounded and much of the 5th in front of the green.


Pebble Beach Companies have sanitized it to provide a resort look.  It probably speeds up play and gives some option to recover.

[Bob Jenkins]

I too played Spyglass before the ice plant was removed and recall watching a member of my group, who was a member at Olympic, slice through the ice plant on the greenside mound, hitting it just like you would a ball sitting high in the rough. I also recall the major reason it was removed was that the ice plant was an invasive specie, but definitely removal would help speed up play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ice Plant has been mostly eradicated at Spyglass.
Other courses are following suit.
 
There seems to be significant agreement that this is an outstanding hole.
 
So, why hasn't it been duplicated ?
 
By RTJ and his disciples and others.
 
Pat Burke,
 
You hit the ball better and farther than 99 % of us, so your play of the hole differs from most of us amateurs and ball beaters.

[Peter Galea]

I was told it was replica of 12 at Pine Valley.
Played both and seems reasonable to me.
So it has been duplicated, but 4 at Spyglass is the copy.

As is 2 at Spy, modeled after 2 at PV.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was told it was replica of 12 at Pine Valley.
Played both and seems reasonable to me.
So it has been duplicated, but 4 at Spyglass is the copy.

As is 2 at Spy, modeled after 2 at PV.
 
Peter, while # 12 at PV may be similar, it lacks the "cape" like feature off the tee.

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

The first 5 holes look like something Tom Doak or Coore & Crenshaw would have designed - so in tune with the natural surroundings.

Does RTJ have any other courses like this, or was he never again presented with such a natural site? All of the Trent Jones courses I've played are parkland and resemble nothing as minimalist as Spyglass. I know Ran has a profile of The Dunes which is close to seaside, but it looks pretty standard.

[William_G]

yes it is one of his best

[Kevin_Reilly]

There is a nice photograph by Joann Dost of the iceplant at the 4th green on the Planet Golf review. 


Click on the smaller photo on the right.


http://www.planetgolf.com.au/index.php?id=910#

[JESII]

Pat,

The Cape refers to the offset placement and orientation of the green. The "bite off as much as you can chew" nature of the tee shot seems to simply be a result of our desire to get as close as possible to a green regardless of the best position.

Huntingdon Valley's 4th and Philadelphia Country's 1st are other predecessors to the 4th at Spyglass. These are both Flynn holes so our local Flynnophiles see this as evidence of Flynn's influence in completing holes 12-15 at Pine Valley when Crump died...

[Peter Pallotta]

Do you remember Peter Boyle's character in "Taxi Driver", and his attempt to help a troubled Travis Bickle towards some measure of self-understanding: 

"A man takes a job, and that job -- I mean, that becomes what he is. You do a thing, and that's what you are. Like, I've been a cabbie for years. Ten years, at night. I still don't own my own cab. You know why? Because I don't want to. That must be what I want: to be on the night shift, driving somebody else's cab."


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

The Cape refers to the offset placement and orientation of the green. The "bite off as much as you can chew" nature of the tee shot seems to simply be a result of our desire to get as close as possible to a green regardless of the best position.
 
Closer to the green is usually the best position.
 
And, if you weren't so tired from lack of sleep, you'd have seen that I used the term,
"Cape like nature of the drive"


Huntingdon Valley's 4th and Philadelphia Country's 1st are other predecessors to the 4th at Spyglass. These are both Flynn holes so our local Flynnophiles see this as evidence of Flynn's influence in completing holes 12-15 at Pine Valley when Crump died...
 
I don't find 12, 13, 14 or 15 to be "Cape like".
 
For the really long hitter one could probably classify # 12 as a par 3.
 
The newer, lower tee would seem to thwart any attempt to cut off the scrub to the left.