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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham New
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 07:44:58 PM »
I think RCC is a good course.  If the front was as good as the back it would be special.  Like Joe, I do think there are some tree issues, but not terrible.  There are also some fairway cut issues, but again not terrible. The good set of greens to me puts the course in Doak 6 range, but its not the sort of place that is easy to recommend to visiting parties as there is nothing particularly interesting going on as a Ross design.  There are a few very good holes, but none which really stand out as excellent...RCC is just good, solid golf.  Using my Ross measuring stick, its no better than Grosse Ile..an unheralded Ross in Michigan.  That said, I would be happy to return...its hard to beat good, solid Ross...much like its hard to beat good, solid Colt. 

AG

Thanks for the lowdown on Hope Valley. I have plans to play there the day after I arrive on the red clay.

Ciao
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 10:54:01 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2016, 09:59:50 AM »
Admitting I've never played Hope Valley, and acknowledging I really enjoy Donald Ross courses, I don't get very excited about the prospect of playing a course where the majority of the holes seem to play between housing corridors.  Granted, it appears there is ample room and it's well done, but since Ross courses in general seem more plentiful and accessible than some of the other great designers, I'd have a hard time picking Hope Valley based on aerials alone.

Andrew,
If you or anyone else opted NOT to play Hope Valley because of housing, it would be a mistake of the first magnitude, IMO.  There is width on every tee shot on the course; it is vintage Ross in that regard.  The homes are set far back from the golf course, and don't intrude at all on the scenery, much less play.

HVCC follows the original Ross routing, with great restoration/renovation work being done by Brian Silva, and it stays in near perfect condition.  It's the best course in the Durham area hands down, and at least the equal of any course in the Triangle area.

AG,

We did have the chance to play Hope Valley on getaway day of our recent trip to the sandhills, and it was definitely a worthwhile experience.  The conditioning was near perfect, particularly the greens, and there were several strong holes, as Ross was certainly more willing to display a dramatic uphill 2nd shot than most modern architects.

That said, it's still hard for me to have this course competing for a top 100 classic spot, as there is something to me about every hole playing on it's own corridors through housing.  It also seems to me a couple holes were made a little too awkward in the name of finding 6,800 yards, particularly #17 tee just doesn't seem to fit. 

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2016, 06:24:12 PM »
Admitting I've never played Hope Valley, and acknowledging I really enjoy Donald Ross courses, I don't get very excited about the prospect of playing a course where the majority of the holes seem to play between housing corridors.  Granted, it appears there is ample room and it's well done, but since Ross courses in general seem more plentiful and accessible than some of the other great designers, I'd have a hard time picking Hope Valley based on aerials alone.

Andrew,
If you or anyone else opted NOT to play Hope Valley because of housing, it would be a mistake of the first magnitude, IMO.  There is width on every tee shot on the course; it is vintage Ross in that regard.  The homes are set far back from the golf course, and don't intrude at all on the scenery, much less play.

HVCC follows the original Ross routing, with great restoration/renovation work being done by Brian Silva, and it stays in near perfect condition.  It's the best course in the Durham area hands down, and at least the equal of any course in the Triangle area.

AG,

We did have the chance to play Hope Valley on getaway day of our recent trip to the sandhills, and it was definitely a worthwhile experience.  The conditioning was near perfect, particularly the greens, and there were several strong holes, as Ross was certainly more willing to display a dramatic uphill 2nd shot than most modern architects.

That said, it's still hard for me to have this course competing for a top 100 classic spot, as there is something to me about every hole playing on it's own corridors through housing.  It also seems to me a couple holes were made a little too awkward in the name of finding 6,800 yards, particularly #17 tee just doesn't seem to fit.

Andrew,
I'm glad you got to play HVCC; it's in fabulous condition always, and never better than right now.

I don't think I've ever advocated considering HVCC for a top 100 classic spot; correct me if I'm wrong.  I simply said that, from the original list on this thread, it was easily the top choice.  That's based on several things, most of which are of great historical interest; an unchanged Ross routing, and at that one of the courses where he likely spent the most time, the site of one of Nelson's 11 straight wins, and an excellent example of what can be done with quality renovation work.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the housing; I've probably played 40+ rounds at HVCC over the last 30 years, and have just never felt like the houses intrude in any way. 

As to the 17th tee, I think it's been in that spot since 1926, and it forces you to make a decision and execute at least one really good shot.  If you want to try to cut the corner to have the shorter approach, you had better hit your drive really, really well or you'll be blocked out.  And if you want to play it safe and stay away from the corner, you're going to have to hit a long club into an elevated green that won't necessarily hold the shot. 

Really, the only tee that's really had to be moved back is #15.  I could be wrong about this, but I think 15 may have originally been a par 4 and #16 a par 5.  But everything else is pretty much like Mr. Ross drew it, and there just aren't many of those left.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2016, 07:46:08 PM »
AG,

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you said top 100, but I saw that it was ranked 101 Classic in another thread.  It's really good, just not *that* good, IMO.

My issue with the back tee at 17 is the trees immediately to the left force a draw but the "safe" side is the left.  The 15th tee didn't bother me much, although a touch inconvenient.

Really great day on a very good course.


A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2016, 06:02:34 PM »
AG,

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you said top 100, but I saw that it was ranked 101 Classic in another thread.  It's really good, just not *that* good, IMO.

My issue with the back tee at 17 is the trees immediately to the left force a draw but the "safe" side is the left.  The 15th tee didn't bother me much, although a touch inconvenient.

Really great day on a very good course.

Andrew,
There is no forced draw on 17, I promise you, UNLESS you want to take on the trees and have a shorter approach.  You can hit the ball straight off that tee, or even play a little bit of a cut; you just have to hit a VERY long approach.  The difference is probably three clubs, maybe an 8 iron vs. a 5 iron if you are playing the second set of tees.  But that's a far cry from a "forced" draw; you can play any shape you want there. 

In fact, there isn't a hole on the golf course that REQUIRES any shape, though most favor a particular shot; that alone is a sign of good GCA, I think.  The closest to a requirement is actually 16, where the rewards for a hard draw are huge, even moreso than 17.  But, like 17, you can play a cut there, too; you'll just have to hit a really good fairway wood to a smallish green if you do!

The members at HVCC that walk (and I would suspect the percentage is over 50%?) know to leave their bag by the 15th tee as they walk up after the tee shot on 14.  Still a bit of a hike back to that tee, at least for a classic course, but at least you aren't toting a golf bag.  FWIW, 15 is arguably my least favorite hole on the golf course; just not very distinguished compared to the rest of the course.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2016, 08:51:59 PM »
Sean,


Have you played Dormie?  If I was within 90 miles, I'd play that all day long.  It's not a walking course, but a really thoughtful layout nonetheless.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

BCowan

Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2016, 09:38:31 PM »
Sean,

    You will enjoy Hope Valley, it offers a lot of cool tee shots.  Plus you will be playing it in season and it should play faster off the tee for it played long in November.  Very demanding on some iron approaches with bold false fronts.  I haven't played RCC, but looking at the photo tour it didn't do anything for me and I've avoided it.  Almost played Cape Fear in Wilmington which looked appealing.  Hope is a solid 6-6.5 all day. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2016, 03:58:33 AM »

Joe


Played Dormie a few years ago.  Scroll down the first page for my impressions.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57154.msg1331920.html#msg1331920


Ben


I am expcting Hope's greens to be relatively slow in August.  When I playd the Raleigh CC in August the infamously fast greens were not in the least fast. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Raleigh-Durham
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2016, 09:11:09 AM »

Joe


Played Dormie a few years ago.  Scroll down the first page for my impressions.


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57154.msg1331920.html#msg1331920


Ben


I am expcting Hope's greens to be relatively slow in August.  When I playd the Raleigh CC in August the infamously fast greens were not in the least fast. 


Ciao

Sean,
Everything is weather-dependent in the SE in August, of course, but I think the green speeds at HVCC will be fast.  That's the great thing about Champion bermuda and the other bermuda hybrids; you can do almost anything with them in the summer without any fear of losing them.  There's been plenty of rain in the RDU area already, and July and August have the highest rainfall averages of the year, so I'd expect you to find the HVCC greens running at 11 or so in August.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

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