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Rich Goodale

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WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« on: June 19, 2016, 06:47:20 PM »
Rules mavens, please explain to me why DJ and the rest of the field has to play the back 9 under a cloud of uncertainty.
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2016, 06:49:34 PM »
At least we can't hang any of em.
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Mike Sweeney

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2016, 06:49:46 PM »
Once again, too many rules, too many lawyers at USGA.


Make a decision and live with it.... Happens in every other sport...


The USGA has already influenced the outcome.
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Rich Goodale

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2016, 06:51:07 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 19, 2016, 06:49:34 PM
At least we can't hang any of em.


Why not?
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John Kavanaugh

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2016, 06:51:39 PM »
No trees.
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jeffwarne

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2016, 06:53:22 PM »
sad


absolutely sad


still time to fix this for the boneheads
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Sweeney

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2016, 06:54:19 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 19, 2016, 06:51:39 PM
No trees.


That was funny. :)


Maybe they have a green side fan in the Super's office to use instead.
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Rich Goodale

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2016, 06:56:53 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on June 19, 2016, 06:51:39 PM
No trees.


Brilliant, Barney!  I owe you a beer next time we meet.
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Jim Adkisson

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2016, 07:06:35 PM »
DJ knows that he will be assessed the penalty...Decision 18-2/0.5 States that if the weight of evidence indicates that it is more than likely that the player caused the ball to move that the penalty must be assessed.

specifically he had grounded his club close to his ball after his practice strokes and then his ball moved immediately as he had removed his putter from the surface of the green to address the ball...

unfortunately the penalty cannot be assessed without discussion and review of the TV tape in scoring at the end of the round
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Joe Hancock

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2016, 07:08:26 PM »
Quote from: Jim Adkisson on June 19, 2016, 07:06:35 PM
DJ knows that he will be assessed the penalty...Decision 18-2/0.5 States that if the weight of evidence indicates that it is more than likely that the player caused the ball to move that the penalty must be assessed.

specifically he had grounded his club close to his ball after his practice strokes and then his ball moved immediately as he had removed his putter from the surface of the green to address the ball...

unfortunately the penalty cannot be assessed without discussion and review of the TV tape in scoring at the end of the round

Why didn't the USGA Rules Official they had in the booth tell DJ that?
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

jeffwarne

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2016, 07:10:39 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on June 19, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
Quote from: Jim Adkisson on June 19, 2016, 07:06:35 PM
DJ knows that he will be assessed the penalty...Decision 18-2/0.5 States that if the weight of evidence indicates that it is more than likely that the player caused the ball to move that the penalty must be assessed.

specifically he had grounded his club close to his ball after his practice strokes and then his ball moved immediately as he had removed his putter from the surface of the green to address the ball...

unfortunately the penalty cannot be assessed without discussion and review of the TV tape in scoring at the end of the round

Why didn't the USGA Rules Official they had in the booth tell DJ that?


he was too busy commenting on green speed
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Adkisson

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2016, 07:13:27 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on June 19, 2016, 07:08:26 PM


Why didn't the USGA Rules Official they had in the booth tell DJ that?

If I was the walking official with the group I would have asked DJ some specific questions regarding his actions immediately prior to the ball moving...that is regrettable...

But rule interpretations from outside observations after the play has moved on should be worked through in scoring after the round.
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Rich Goodale

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2016, 07:17:55 PM »
So, Jim A....


.....if I ground my club and take some practice swings a yard or two away from the ball, and then lift my club and the ball moves a yard or two away, I am causing the ball to move?  What if I am taking those practice swings a few inches from the ball?  Are the Rules officials at the USGA Physics graduates?  I'm married to a Physics graduate and she thinks that the USGA officials are idiots.  I agree with her.


Rich
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Joe Hancock

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2016, 07:18:42 PM »
I'm all for a player being penalized if he moves the ball at address on the green by touching it with the putter, but on greens....greens this fast.....absolutely stupid to have a rule such as this in golf when it can go wrong so fast.

For the good of the game indeed.
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim Adkisson

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2016, 07:29:27 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on June 19, 2016, 07:17:55 PM
So, Jim A....


.....if I ground my club and take some practice swings a yard or two away from the ball, and then lift my club and the ball moves a yard or two away, I am causing the ball to move?  What if I am taking those practice swings a few inches from the ball?  Are the Rules officials at the USGA Physics graduates?  I'm married to a Physics graduate and she thinks that the USGA officials are idiots.  I agree with her.


Rich

Rich, if you can look at decision 18-2/0.5 it is a rather long decision for me to type out...this one decision took approximately an hour for Craig Winters of USGA rules to explain at recent USGA/PGA Rules class in Tacoma...

all evidence should be reviewed and if weight of evidence is that it is more than likely that the player caused the ball to move than the penalty must be assessed...if you take your practice strokes away from the ball, the weight of evidence would not suggest that the player caused the ball to move...

But in this case the video shows that his actions "more than likely" caused his ball to move...

I hope DJ leads by 2 prior to entering the scoring tent to talk to Craig Winters
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Joe Hancock

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2016, 07:32:06 PM »
Quote from: Jim Adkisson on June 19, 2016, 07:29:27 PM


But in this case the video shows that his actions "more than likely" caused his ball to move...



I disagree. There was space between his putter and the ball, both to the side, and behind.

If no contact, then it's just speculation as to what caused the ball to move.
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Rich Goodale

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2016, 07:42:43 PM »
Agree with you, Joe, and not with Jim, but regardless we are seeing the most ugly underside of our great game at one of our greatest venues and with some of our greatest players.  I love golf and have been playing it for over 60 years, but the more I watch the end of this Open the more I wish to puke.....
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jamey Bryan

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2016, 07:45:31 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on June 19, 2016, 07:32:06 PM
Quote from: Jim Adkisson on June 19, 2016, 07:29:27 PM


But in this case the video shows that his actions "more than likely" caused his ball to move...



I disagree. There was space between his putter and the ball, both to the side, and behind.

If no contact, then it's just speculation as to what caused the ball to move.

I also disagree.  There was no contact, and there was significant time between the practice strokes and the ball moving.  I think the final discussion in the relevant decision is relevant:

"A player's ball lies on an upslope in a closely-mown area. He makes a practice swing, but does so some distance from the ball as he is concerned that the ball may move. He carefully takes his stance but does not ground his club. Prior to making his backswing for the stroke, the ball moves. As the ball did not move while the player made the practice swing or took his stance, it is more likely than not that other factors (i.e., the ball's lie on an upslope) caused the ball to move. (New)"

Jamey
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jeffwarne

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2016, 07:46:12 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on June 19, 2016, 07:42:43 PM

 the more I watch the end of this Open the more I wish to puke.....



Who knew that when the USGA finally played a course with grass that the grass would be the problem
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Adkisson

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2016, 07:46:21 PM »
Joe, I respect your opinion that you don't think that he touched the ball with the toe of his putter when he picked it up from immediately next to his ball, but the rule is that if the evidence is "more than likely" that his actions caused the ball at rest to move then the penalty must be assessed....its in the text of Decision 18-2/0.5
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Tom Walsh

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2016, 07:51:20 PM »
"I hope DJ leads by 2 prior to entering the scoring tent to talk to Craig Winters"

the USGA should get no pass on this
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Mike Sweeney

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2016, 07:51:38 PM »
Quote from: Jim Adkisson on June 19, 2016, 07:46:21 PM
Joe, I respect your opinion that you don't think that he touched the ball with the toe of his putter when he picked it up from immediately next to his ball, but the rule is that if the evidence is "more than likely" that his actions caused the ball at rest to move then the penalty must be assessed....its in the text of Decision 18-2/0.5


Irrelevant.


As per my post on the other thread, 33-2-d gives The Committee that ability to suspend play for "any reason". Suspend play, make the ruling, and continue on. This is a joke how this is being contested. My wife has maybe picked up 3 golf clubs in 23 years of marriage, and she said, "That changes all the strategy...."
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Mike Sweeney

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2016, 07:55:47 PM »
Quote from: Tom Walsh on June 19, 2016, 07:51:20 PM
"I hope DJ leads by 2 prior to entering the scoring tent to talk to Craig Winters"

the USGA should get no pass on this


I hope DJ birdies 18 and wins by 4 so his win is less controversial.


I agree that the USGA destroyed this championship and they should not get a pass.
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Donovan Childers

Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2016, 08:00:38 PM »
I just want to know how the rule change about the limited use of HD  and slo motion replay comes into play here. Not visible to the naked eye, Tiger Rule.
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Mike Sweeney

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Re: WTF is the USGA doing to screw up this great Open?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2016, 08:01:54 PM »
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
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