[Neal_Meagher]

The playing field of the game of golf is, in the main, a simple one.  A meandering journey of wanton greenery intermingled with an aesthetically pleasing arrangments of hazards and geometrically defined strategic elements.

Yet, unlike other design professionals for whom human life depends (the structural engineer who must put a certain column at precisely the correct location for its bearing loads on a 40-story office building etc.), the golf architect must posses many and varied skills.

Specifically, I'm curious as to what the treehouse thinks about which individual skills were inherent in the Golden Age designers , or even in today's designers.  These skills would be defined as follows:

1.   Artist
2.   Engineer
3.   Landscape Architect
4.   Salesman
5.   Sportsman
6.   Agronomist

Feel free to add others, but endeavor to place a percentage on each.  For example, Trent Jones may be upwards of 50% salesman, where Max Behr may be the same percentage artist.

This is simply an excercise in understanding what is the most important trait that an architect can display based on his own personality and design philosophy as viewed by others.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Neal, I wish I had the words to ELP's Karn Evil #9 at hand to post, but in truth, I'm too tired to go search for them on the internet and I don't want to have to take dictation from myself from memory, but yes, I do know the words by heart!:) But just remember this--picture Robert Trent Jones with one of those horse drawn wagons selling snake oil. So when you say 50%, I'll politely disagree and say, "No, more like 150%."

But he made a living and he raised two very successful sons who are probably more talented then he was at designing golf courses. So he did something right.

Desmond Muirhead who had great disdain for both Rees and Bobby, once told me that neither of them really knew how to design a golf course, and that they relied on others to do that for them. He gave them credit for knowing the protocol in doing it, but when it came to actually doing it all themselves, they would be in very foreign waters (Not in his words either) Desmond's nicest words for the Jones's was that they more then likely didn't know that right side up of a pencil, let alone know anything about land planning. Personally, in respect to Rees and Bobby Jones, I don't, nor ever really believed that. So that must be a plus for you Rees Associates reading.

But as far as all of the classes you have listed,you forgot one--Historian, because without the past, there can be no future. How else was one supposed to learn? History also posesses the Soul, because back when, there was just so many GREAT and exciting things going on. Don't get me wrong, there were lots of fights that many of us don't realize was part of the process to build golf courses. It happened then, and it happens now. I don't think one was worse the the other either because back then things were much simpler, and less problmatic--but people were too. Are intensity has risen just as fast as the green fee.

It's like a movie I was watching just recently where it was describing a young brilliant doctor/surgeon was as such, but had no soul.  Such is the state of so much of the activity we know as golf. The people designing a lot of these new courses don't have soul, nor do many of the people who are playing them.

Neal, Max Behr would probably better versed not as an artist, but that of visionary. I'm not saying he is the best we have ever known, because he really didn't do all that many courses, and none of them are really left, they have changed that much. He knew how to write, and even more he had a respect of history and how Golf should be played. It abhorred anything paralleling close to imitation in regards to the activity of Golf.

But you do make a point in regards to his abilites to design AND build.

[guesst]

Neal, I wish I had the words to ELP's Karn Evil #9 at hand to post, . . .  But just remember this--picture Robert Trent Jones with one of those horse drawn wagons selling snake oil. So when you say 50%, I'll politely disagree and say, "No, more like 150%."

Tommy, just because I love you and always do what you say, this is for you:  

                             Emerson, Lake and Palmer
                                       Karn Evil #9

Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends.
We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside.
There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass,
Be careful as you pass, move along, move along.

Come inside, the show's about to start,
Guaranteed to blow your head apart.
Rest assured you'll get your money's worth,
The greatest show in Heaven, Hell or Earth.
You've got to see the show, it's a dynamo,
You've got to see the show, it's rock and roll, oh.

Right before your eyes see the laughter from the skies,
And he laughs until he cries, then he dies, then he dies.

Soon the Gypsy Queen in a glaze of vaseline
Will perform on guillotine, what a scene, what a scene.
Next upon the stand will you please extend a hand
To Alexander's Ragtime Band, Dixieland, Dixieland.

Roll up, roll up, roll up,
See the show

Performing on a stool we've a sight to make you drool,
Seven virgins and a mule, keep it cool, keep it cool.
We would like it to be known the exhibits that were shown
Were exclusively our own, all our own, all our own.

Come and see the show, come and see the show,
Come and see the show,
See the show.

You are welcome.

[Tom_Doak]

Neal,

Of course you recognize that every different architect has a different set of values, and there is no "perfect" formula.  Since I know him better than most here, I'll take a stab at Pete Dye:

30% Engineer
25% Salesman
20% Sportsman
15% Artist
10% Agronomist
 0%  Landscape Architect

Most people think Pete was a free-form artist, but in fact his primary ability was as an engineer who could figure out what to do with dirt and drainage.  (Who else would have dug a moat around the TPC at Sawgrass and pumped it to the Intercoastal Waterway?)  He's also one of the few architects who would get any points for agronomy, just because he was always experimenting with new grass types.

Thanks to my time with Pete I would say my percentages are similar -- a little less salesman and a little bit Landscape Architect thanks to my three years at Cornell.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Guesst, Thank you. As it was last night when I went to be, I was singing the song in my head all night!

Can't you see???
Can't you see???
Can't you see???
I'll be there,
I'll be there,
I will be there!

[Norbert P]

1.  Artist
2.  Engineer
3.  Landscape Architect
4.  Salesman
5.  Sportsman
6.  Agronomist

Neal, Good question and these six attributes are fine choices of examination. Maybe we could had Sociologist or Philosopher but those would be minor %, I'm sure.

  I wonder, taken from my dreamy perspective of wanting to design golf courses myself, if over time the priorities get flip flopped.  I mean, when one is new and fresh to the occupation one must be driven by artistry and expression more than the engineering but with experience the idealism must wane and the practicality of engineering must elevate in attention.

  Which begs another question, at least for me...

  How does a golf course architect remain inspired and motivated to keep artistry at the top of his goals over years in the field?  Does the nuts and bolts of building a course detach and morph the seasoned archie from appreciating the lay of the existing land and seeing only expectations of the final result?

"From the top of the mountain one cannot see the mountain"
 (Old Japanese saying)

[ed_getka]

One more attribute to add, especially with regard to restorations/renovations is political skills. I have seen this first hand a number of times in the last couple of years. It is amazing how many people (without a clue) an architect accepts feedback from without committing a homicide.

Ability to be pragmatic. As in deciding whether to give the client what he wants even if you know its not what you would do, or staying true to your vision of what the site calls for no matter what, even if it means turning down a job.

I will do some percentages in a little while, I've got to get some work done.

[Brad Klein]

What special traits did did MacKenzie, Tillinghast and Macdonald all have in common?

1. they were raging egomaniacs
2. who regularly drank themselves into oblivion
3. and died nearly penniless in the single-minded pursuit of their passion, in some cases having first contracted and then exhibted symptomology of a (hetero)sexually transmitted disease.

I am often asked what special advantages Ross had over his competitors that enabled him to be productive for so long. The answer is simple; he was the only one of his contemporaries still sober and standing by 4 p.m.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Brad, you bring up a great point--the Alcohol Content Factor, which should be one of the most important of Neal's attributes.

"Eh gads! Water!"--W.C. Fields

[T_MacWood]

Makes you want to run out and become the next Tillie, Macdonald and MacKenzie. I have visions of the great men wallowing in their own vomit and urin...their manhood rotting...nearly blind and on the brink of maddness. In this highly charged creative state I can imagine they would be very receptive to a Muccian-type browbeating to stay on mission....I'm surprised there were no homocides.

[Richard Chamberlain]

1.   Artist
2.   Engineer
3.   Landscape Architect
4.   Salesman
5.   Sportsman
6.   Agronomist

7. A damn thick skin.

[DMoriarty]

Most people think Pete was a free-form artist, but in fact his primary ability was as an engineer who could figure out what to do with dirt and drainage.  (Who else would have dug a moat around the TPC at Sawgrass and pumped it to the Intercoastal Waterway?)  He's also one of the few architects who would get any points for agronomy, just because he was always experimenting with new grass types.

Tom,  do you think that Mr. Dye's emphasis on engineering and de-emphasis on landscape architecture were two of the keys to his success?  It often seems to me that a common characteristic of holes which play well is that they seem to drain naturally and flow naturally.  

[ForkaB]

Neal

Attribute #4 ("Salesmanship") is too narrow.  It is only one of a number of aspects of Marketing, which (as a complete outsider to your business, but sometime strategic marketing consultant) I would say is at least 50% of the equation.  As with any business, getting yourself in front of the client/customer so that you have the opportunity to use whatever salesmanship skills you have (or need), is the key.  You do that by developing and executing the classic 4 P's:

--Product (what you can do)
--Price (value for money)
--Promotion (being known)
--Place (being there)

Whether or not GCA is an art or a craft or just a trade, it is--certainly today--a business.  Ignore the classic design principles of businesses at your peril!

[BCrosby]

Brad -

For years I have always thought of Ross's style a "low-key". Henceforth I will think of it as "sober".

On the flip side, perhaps your theory helps explain the wild/nutty side of MacK. (The fairway level photos of MacK's original greens for ANGC are beyond wild. His greens, as first built, were parodies of greens.)

Maybe the ideal Golden Age course would be one that Ross did while drunk or Mack while sober.

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Slag:  I think we're just using different words for the same thing.

I don't think very much of golf architecture is "pure art" in a classic sense.  Proportion and composition are important, but they're the finer touches.

Obviously putting dirt into place is engineering.  But figuring out where to lay the holes so you don't have to disturb anything is ALSO engineering.  And shaping green complexes in 3-D is more engineering than art, because you've got to make it play well and drain well in addition to looking good.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Then what would you call the green on #6 of the Eden Course?

[Norbert P]

Slag:  I think we're just using different words for the same thing.

  Tom,  I see what you're getting at:  Engineering artistry blended with artistic engineering.  Eureka!!!

[ian]

Brad,

The stories of the architect's exploits grow with each passing year. It has been interesting to find out a few famous tales of Thompson are massive embelishments. That happens with time.

Neil,

To add to the list: A sense of humour. It helps dealing with people who are often a larger problem than any technical issue. A sense of humour is required when you try and push what is acceptable or concidered fair to the "see everything and have a shot out of anything" mentality.

[paul cowley]

....artist and planner and engineer [and one who plays the game ] first....
 ......salesman etc. etc.....etc.....all second.

 i think petes an artist first.................he just uses his engineering ability as his brush......

[Neal_Meagher]

Ok, now I've got it.  A golf architect must be versed in all of the following:

1.  Artist
2.  Engineer
3.  Landscape Architect
4.  Salesman (all kinds Rihc Goodale)
5.  Sportsman
6.  Agronomist
7.  Sociologist
8.  Philosopher
9.  Politician (linked with Salesman)
10. Pubster (sounds better than alcoholic)
11. Humorist

Wow, that's quite a list of job skills.  Yet, the one resonating thread I derive from all of the above responses is an artistically engineered mind coupled with an innate understanding of the GAME of golf.  Or SPORT.  I think that is a key difference.  Or similarity.

Somewhere, we got away from golf being a sporting activity akin to rock climbing, archery, table tennis and foosball.

It is a sport, after all with the best practitioners being sportsmen in other fields like fishing and hunting.  A sport intimates a greater ability to stir the senses and freshen the pulse.  A game could be bridge.  Or Go Fish.

And, finally, Slag asks about how a Golf Architect remains inspired and motivitated to keep artistry at the top of his goals over years in the field?

To that I would say that it depends on the individual.  Many of the exalted architects practicing today have become that way because of an unyielding desire to go forward with fresh and sometimes, throwback, ideas of design and construction.  I simply cannot fathom some of today's exemplary architects getting stale.  Yet, some have become stale in the past and others exhibit a proclivity toward becoming stale today.

It simply depends on the individual and how they respond to the eleven attributes listed above.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Neal,


That varied list of required skills is what keeps the job so interesting!  Overall, being a golf course architect is a "fairway to make the green."  Okay, so I need to work on No. 11 skills.

Slag,

As to creative juices, there is a "design type" personality.  I have it.  I took one of those personality tests, and the administrator said I had the highest score to that type of personality she had ever seen.  So, I'm where I need to be in life.....I'm not sure all designers have that personality, but I'm sure the best ones do, and never run out of ideas and the need to be creative.  Just the thought of a design problem starts the blood flowing....

I have never been short on creative juices, providing I'm not sick or worried about something else.  I think if I drove my car over a cliff, I'd be doodling green designs on the ride down.

[Norbert P]

 I think if I drove my car over a cliff, I'd be doodling green designs on the ride down.

  #11 achieved.  ... just don't test that scenario, ok?

 

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