[Jon Wiggett]

Is there evidence to suggest that the fly population will actually be reduced with the golf course?


In Ireland, we have actually seen the opposite with a particular snail that was the basis of development objections. Numbers were larger on the golf course than on the undeveloped dunes.

No Ally,


there is no evidence nor has any study been done of this apparently endangered fly. Though the fact that it has been found on two other sites in the last few years might point more to the fact that its rarity is because no one has bothered to look for it before.


Jon

[Rich Goodale]

(sigh)

+infinity

[Thomas Dai]

Wasn’t there once an old lady who swallowed a fly? A resident of the east coast of Sutherland perhaps?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8a13-JbxC98

Atb

[Lou_Duran]

If it is "scientific", nuanced, or sophisticated to believe that a fly has the same worth and significance as a tiger, put me in the camp with the regressives (though a subsistence farmer in India near one of the wildlife preserves might strongly believe otherwise).  I've paid a lot of money to sit in a Land Rover straining my neck to catch a glimpse of magnificent beasts while angrily swatting away all types of vile insects and wishing that science would once and for all come up with something to keep these nuisances away (tsetse and Canadian black flies are two that the ecosystem would be infinitely better off for their eradication).    I could argue that this "special" fly has not met the exigencies of natural selection and, if it can't adapt, it should go the way of any number of other species that failed to make the grade.  But I digress.

I got to see the CL site from the area behind the farm buildings during this last trip to Scotland for the Buda.  We also visited Trump's course near Balmedie.  From my vantage points, the dunes of the former have little resemblance to the latter.   I can understand why some would object to the Trump project.  Other than to reflexively say "No" to any development, I can't see the opposition to converting a rather ordinary, mostly unmanaged, and somewhat degraded site into a green, low-density open area that would be nurtured to enhance the local fauna and flora.  Must most everything be opposed? 

[JC Jones]

Lou,


Must most everything be opposed?  You mean, besides the things you’re opposing?


Perhaps you should take a look at the value of flies, generally, and then maybe imagine what the impact would be were these particular flies eradicated from this particular ecosystem.  Keeping in mind that your experience with the abundance of flies is likely also due to the impact of some previous “development” or environmental change.

I hate getting stuck on the side of flies here as I think the depiction of golf courses as destructive is overly broad and often unfair if not totally inaccurate.

[Tom_Doak]

In Ireland, we have actually seen the opposite with a particular snail that was the basis of development objections. Numbers were larger on the golf course than on the undeveloped dunes.

That also happened at Tara Iti, with the eponymous fairy tern.  There are more of them today than before the golf course was in planning.  This is either because we tore out the commercial pine forest and restored native vegetation to the site, or just because everyone is watching for them more closely now ... but we didn't lure them all to their deaths, as one woman fretted.


In the case of the fly at Embo, I have no idea of its significance, but it is quite a coincidence that it was declared endangered during the review of this planning application.

[JC Jones]

Perhaps the Scottish body that makes these determinations didn’t discover nor recognize the endangeredness of the fly until they were forced to examine the environmentalists of the site as a part of this process?


You don’t HAVE to be so cynical, ya know...

[Tom_Doak]

Perhaps the Scottish body that makes these determinations didn’t discover nor recognize the endangeredness of the fly until they were forced to examine the environmentalists of the site as a part of this process?


You don’t HAVE to be so cynical, ya know...

While it's true that I was born in NYC, both my parents were from the Show Me State.


The fact that a species IS present at one site does not add to the case for it being endangered; it's whether it exists a lot of other places [or not] that is the question.

[Niall C]

I’ll confess when this all kicked off my initial reaction was more rich US golf developers looking to ride roughshod over our planning system by throwing a few baubles at the locals, much as Trump promised to do at Balmedie. Then when I looked into it more, and read more about it from both sides, I came to the conclusion it was very much like Trump. For sure, Mike Keiser and Todd Warnock are both nice guys who no doubt mean well and Trump is a lying sleazebag (undeniable I’d have thought irrespective of whether you approve of his policies) but the approach to gaining planning consent is out of the same textbook.

I recall when Trump got his consent at Balmedie, there was many on here who rejoiced, and I suspect many are the same people supporting this proposed development. And when he did get his consent I opined that what he had done was make it a lot harder for prospective golf developers to obtain consent in the future, and that his getting planning consent was in fact a bad thing not just in itself (I was against it) but also because of the collateral damage it would do to other proposed developments. Despite what is happening at Embo, I think I was wrong. Developments like Mach Dunes (pre-Balmedie from memory) and the more recent Dumbarnie development show what can be done by respecting planning policy and working with the planners and the environmental authorities rather than picking a fight and turning it into a popularity contest.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

I’ll confess when this all kicked off my initial reaction was more rich US golf developers looking to ride roughshod over our planning system by throwing a few baubles at the locals, much as Trump promised to do at Balmedie. Then when I looked into it more, and read more about it from both sides, I came to the conclusion it was very much like Trump. For sure, Mike Keiser and Todd Warnock are both nice guys who no doubt mean well and Trump is a lying sleazebag (undeniable I’d have thought irrespective of whether you approve of his policies) but the approach to gaining planning consent is out of the same textbook.

I recall when Trump got his consent at Balmedie, there was many on here who rejoiced, and I suspect many are the same people supporting this proposed development. And when he did get his consent I opined that what he had done was make it a lot harder for prospective golf developers to obtain consent in the future, and that his getting planning consent was in fact a bad thing not just in itself (I was against it) but also because of the collateral damage it would do to other proposed developments. Despite what is happening at Embo, I think I was wrong. Developments like Mach Dunes (pre-Balmedie from memory) and the more recent Dumbarnie development show what can be done by respecting planning policy and working with the planners and the environmental authorities rather than picking a fight and turning it into a popularity contest.

Niall

I'm not sure how useful your Dumbarnie comparison is Niall. Dumbarnie got planning because it was not a particularly sensitive site. There is SSSI there, but the golf course specifically avoids it. This is why Dumbarnie is going to be a made course, not a found one.

[Niall C]

Adam

That was the point I was making, they avoided the sensitive areas. At Embo and at Balmedie, the developer chose not to do that.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Then what about Machrihanish Dunes, where they didn't?

[JC Jones]

Perhaps the Scottish body that makes these determinations didn’t discover nor recognize the endangeredness of the fly until they were forced to examine the environmentalists of the site as a part of this process?


You don’t HAVE to be so cynical, ya know...

While it's true that I was born in NYC, both my parents were from the Show Me State.


The fact that a species IS present at one site does not add to the case for it being endangered; it's whether it exists a lot of other places [or not] that is the question.

On what basis are you asserting that the existence of this fly at this site was the determining factor for it having been declared endangered?


Seems from light reading it is pretty clear it doesn’t exist a lot of other places; hence the designation.

[Marty Bonnar]

Here’s a link to the SNH report. Makes for some interesting reading (if you like that sort of thing).
Most hilariously, seems they killed around 30 of the wee beasties for the survey! 


https://www.nature.scot/sites/default/files/2017-11/Publication%202013%20-%20SNH%20Commissioned%20Report%20618%20-%20Survey%20and%20ecology%20of%20Botanophila%20fonsecai%20Ackland%20%28Diptera%2C%20Anthomyiidae%29%2C%20a%20seed-fly%20endemic%20to%20Scotland.pdf


Happy reading.
F.

[JC Jones]

Here’s a link to the SNH report. Makes for some interesting reading (if you like that sort of thing).
Most hilariously, seems they killed around 30 of the wee beasties for the survey! 


https://www.nature.scot/sites/default/files/2017-11/Publication%202013%20-%20SNH%20Commissioned%20Report%20618%20-%20Survey%20and%20ecology%20of%20Botanophila%20fonsecai%20Ackland%20%28Diptera%2C%20Anthomyiidae%29%2C%20a%20seed-fly%20endemic%20to%20Scotland.pdf


Happy reading.
F.

 

[Niall C]

Then what about Machrihanish Dunes, where they didn't?

Yes they did, they worked with the environmental agencies and worked round the sensitive areas which is why you have long walks at some points. They still managed to successfully develop an excellent course.

Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Then what about Machrihanish Dunes, where they didn't?

Yes they did, they worked with the environmental agencies and worked round the sensitive areas which is why you have long walks at some points. They still managed to successfully develop an excellent course.

Niall

Well yes and no. The entire course is within the SSSI; it's just that at Mach Dunes they got consent to be in there, as long, as you say, that they avoided certain extremely sensitive areas.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

Must most everything be opposed?  You mean, besides the things you’re opposing?

Ouch!  I guess there is a bit of hypocrisy in all of us.  I have seen Barney rubbing off on you a bit, but now I detect some David Moriarty creeping in as well!  Though I share some of the populist concerns about your profession, I respect the value of the education.  Being able to debate all points of view of an issue with apparent conviction while pounding the table as needed are very useful skills.

Actually, I mostly only oppose things that affect me directly and can't avoid, primarily top-down government laws and policies which, if I willingly or unknowingly violate will land me in jail.  Examples:  I don't care if the Masters or the Tour bifurcate the rules on balls and implements, but it would cause me concern if I was prevented from playing my favorite presently conforming ball.  I don't care if NY and VA pay Amazon's corporate blackmail; I do care if the federal government attempts to impose laws prohibiting competition between the states.  I am ok if an unbiased, apolitical evaluation determines that an insect is critical to the environment thus preventing the use of the habitat, provided that private property owners are then compensated fairly for what is a taking for the public good.

As to the fly study,  .  Real First World problems in my estimation.  I spent countless hours during the hot Ohio summers pulling milkweed from soybean fields to improve the yields.  Not long ago, I think while playing golf, someone noted that the Monarch butterflies were starting to migrate and that because they had planted these large, noxious weeds, huge numbers were expected at the site,   Apparently, milkweed attracts Monarchs, and though they are beautiful and highly valued by some, I felt no remorse for my past activity which helped a large, economically sensitive family pay-off a small farm through a lifetime of hard work.       

[Lou_Duran]

I’ll confess when this all kicked off my initial reaction was more rich US golf developers looking to ride roughshod over our planning system by throwing a few baubles at the locals, much as Trump promised to do at Balmedie.

Sometimes confession can be cleansing.  At times, perhaps, a bit too revealing.  And I thought that our European brothers had evolved past crass nationalism and ethnocentricity! 

Then again, for some, the prospect of 30-100+ jobs is a "bauble" (love the word!).  To others it is a means to a life of better prospects, the dignity of work and being productive.  Apparently, some believe that one out of over 100,000 species of flies have recognizable rights trumping those of property owners, the workers at the course, and supporting businesses. 

And, if I may ask, is the current planning policy so well-calibrated, fair, timely, and efficient that is should be considered sacrosanct and impervious to challenge?  Is it resulting in affordable property prices?  Better living conditions beyond those of the NIMBYs?  Does it have a positive impact on the population widely and the economy?  Can a relatively small minority, no matter the quality of its intentions and its value judgments, be able to override the desire of a large local majority with last minute Hail Marys such as an "endangered" fly?  Just asking!

 

[JC Jones]

Lou,

Must most everything be opposed?  You mean, besides the things you’re opposing?

Ouch!  I guess there is a bit of hypocrisy in all of us.  I have seen Barney rubbing off on you a bit, but now I detect some David Moriarty creeping in as well!       

I pay you a compliment and you hit me with this?!!?!  OUCH!

[Lou_Duran]

Not a slam at all JC.      JK gets off the reservation at times, but his provocations, IMO, are much enjoyable and interesting than the pablum, "+1" stuff that too often appears here.  On the few occasions I am able to decipher his short posts, his unusual insights and droll wit are enjoyable.  And though I've had disagreements with David M in the past, I always admired his intellect and ability to project his ideas in writing.  I think that both men add value of the site.

It just seems to me that the guy who partnered with me in victory at Aiken wouldn't be playing the bug card in this argument (hence the reference to Barney who likes to stir up things), and doubling down when challenged (a common Moriarty tactic).  If indeed yours is a heartfelt opinion vis-à-vis the value of a fly and its rights within the legal framework, I fear that peaceful compromise between reasonable men is unlikely.  I suppose that the courts and the ballot box are the final means to a resolution, but that is so damned cumbersome and don't we have much bigger fish to fry? 

[Marty Bonnar]

Lou,
First with the fly, now with the fish.
What are you? Some kind of animal-hating monster?
 
F.

[JC Jones]

When was the land acquired for Coul Links?

[Jon Wiggett]

When was the land acquired for Coul Links?

Aquired by who? The land is owned by the same person who owned it well before SSSI designation. FYI the fly in question was thought to be unique to the site initially but when they started looking elsewhere it was also found elsewhere. Whilst I do not doubt it is not as common as a bluebottle I suspect much of its present rarity is to do with the fact that it has not been looked for.


This whole calling in of the planning application is purely to do with having a weak government been dictated to by an unelected MSP and nothing to do with environmental issues.

[JC Jones]

So, as I understand it, Keiser and the hotel guy approached the owner of the land somewhere around 2014-2105 re development of the golf course.  And, the owner remains the same but Keiser et al. would enter into a long term lease for the property were it approved for development.


 Is that correct?

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