[Michael J. Moss]

For the past three years I have been Green Chairman of a private club in Westchester County, NY. I am proud to report to this group that to date I am the first in a long line of past Green Chairman who has "done no harm" to our golf course (so far). I give enormous credit to GCA for raising the collective awareness of golfers, all to their course's benefit. Today, many of these classic courses are being returned to conditions that reflect the "original intent" of the architects that designed them.

The issue I raise today regards the grassing schemes we are using today versus what we would have seen in 1918 when our course was opened for play.  

Our course is somewhat hilly and has more than its fair amount of ledge making it difficult to attain a pristine "parkland look."  Our Superintendent, who is terrific, has grown fescue on some areas that are severely pitched and difficult to hold grass let alone cut it. We have also grown fescue in some areas between fairways that only penalize balls that were struck beyond crooked. We also have a short par-3 with a green that is positioned well below the teeing area. On this hole we have grown fesue with wild flowers which, to my eye, is much more attractive than the scrubby-looking grass that we had previously (around this time the fescue begins to turn that wonderful golden color).  

One of the inherent problems we have is that we are currently very much over-treed (especially when compared to our 1926 aerial). To me, the little shrubs, evergreens and saplings sticking out of the tall grass appears in conflict with the look we're trying to achieve in those areas. The most controversial area where we've grown fescue is between our 3rd and 4th holes. The holes are separated by a valley where the ground falls off sharply, again, making grass difficult to hold. Our 4th is a short par-4 with a risk/reward driving decision (OB right and bunkers and the drop-off on the left). If the drive is duck-hooked the fescue comes into play and the ball is probably lost - hence, pace of play issues. Frankly, I don't think it's an unfair penalty for a rotten shot and it is far enough off the tee to only grab the long hitter's ball.

The Met Amateur was played at Summerset Hills this summer and I have seen photos of their redan par-3 framed with fescue that doesn't appear to come into play. It looked great in the picture! I would like to know if they still have it or whether it was eliminated. What is the thinking today regarding fescue on parkland courses? Is it a fad or authentic to the classic style?

PS- I took a hit from one of our former club champs (and a friend) who, after losing his tee shot in the fescue on our 4th, stated that the stuff has no business being on a parkland course in the first place. Is he right? I think our course, among other things, is over-treed, not over-fescued.

[mike_malone]

 My home course has many of the off-the-beaten track grass growing challenges that yours has.We had a master plan done several years ago that recommended fescue for many of these slopes.We did not do it.Maybe because we have "Green"in our name the thought of brown wheat does not appeal.I guess i prefer the look we have.I think the fescue-look is associated with new courses.We want that classic look.
  You are to be commended for serving your club as green chair.And also for taking some risks.

[Michael Dugger]

I have nothing to add about the fescue except to take the stand that the former club champ is being a whiner.  

"There's no fescue on a parkland course"  
"There's no crying in baseball"

Puh leeeez

We all play the same course.  
Sounds like sour grapes

[Jim_Michaels]

"We all play the same course" is a pretty poor excuse for bad design or bad maintenance.  

I was recently playing a parkland course that had fescue in several inappropriate places.  On a par 4 with thick woods down the left hand side, some genius planted fescue from about 100-175 yards out. So, no decent player will be in there and the poor sot who hit a duck hook off the tee has literally no opportunity to attempt a recovery shot.

On another par 4 with out of bounds on the right, the green was clearly oriented to favor a tee shot down the right side of a split fairway. The same genius apparently decided that o.b. was not enough of a risk to take testing that right side and planted a small grove of fescue at 260-290 out. Wasn't the fear of playing in traffic enough?

These sorts of decisions, made by superintendents or green committees are inconsistent with design intent and enjoyable play. I won't get into whether or not they are "fair".

[Michael J. Moss]

Gentlemen,

Let us refocus the question - back when, did the architects introduce native grasses other than bent and poa on their courses (tall fescue perhaps)? Is the fescue we're using on our parkland courses authentic or a modern interpretation.

[George_Bahto]

I'll leave the answer to this question for others but ....

.... just an aside about "our" poster, "Hermanbarron" and what he said, "For the past three years I have been Green Chairman of a private club in Westchester County, NY. I am proud to report to this group that to date I am the first in a long line of past Green Chairman who has "done no harm" to our golf course"

Yes, indeed!!

I've had the pleasure of "working with" and becoming very friendly with this fine gentleman for over a year now. He is, and has been, indeed, hard at work battling against severe odds attempting to do something positive about a very fine golf course gone afoul over the years - a course  nestled among some of the great courses here in the northeast. He like many others in that situation seem to be banging their heads against a wall at times but this fella just keeps right on track!!

Keep up the good work Mike - my good friend!

[Happy Gilmore]

Herr Barron,

    The marvelous 2nd hole Redan at Somerset Hills is not currently framed by fescue. There are vestiges of this in areas usually not directly in play...would love to see those older pix.


HG

[Michael J. Moss]

George,

We're all up late waiting to see if the tennis is going to resume.

Thanks for the kind remarks. Yes, my forehead has been flattened somewhat with all the head-banging I have inflicted on myself. You've had to patient as well and I appreciate it. We'll get something done. I told a friend that if we ever reinstall the Alps/ Punchbowl on our 6th we're going to name it either Bahto or George's Alps!

[RJ_Daley]

Hermanbarron,  it occurs to me that the question of the appropriateness of fescue on a parkland course is unanserable without knowing the conditions it is planted under.  Is the soil more rich and loamy and retention of water and nutrients such that the fescue will do too well?  Is the area receiving full sun or shade?  Does surface runoff tend to migrate to the fescue areas carrying fertilizers and make it too lush?  Is the desire to use a grass that may be less expensive to maintain, or is that not a consideration.  I don't think one can just say fescue fits on parkland courses nor is it proper rough texture without knowing more about the conditions it is grown in.  What is the superintendent's honest advise about what grass species should be used where, given his maintenance standard directives from the club? It is my understanding that such fescue areas that you describe present a fierce battle for the super to wage to supress the incursion and overtaking of the area with annual bluegrasses.  What is the long range plan to keep the fescue in a whispy and reasonably functional rough condition as opposed to so thick and overrun by blues that there is no use even going into it for a ball?

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

    Parkland golf courses have evolved in the last 100 years. I think the biggest change to most golf courses happened in the 1930's when tree planting on large scale began to happen.  If you agree that most classical area courses are now over planted with trees then the question to answer is what was growing there before the trees planted and grew.  Was it fescue? One thing for sure is it wasn't mowed and manicured in the manner it is today.  And that is the next big influence on what a parkland golf course looks like today. Most couses mow a hug acreage of rough, 40 to 60 acres, at 2.5" or less.  Once golf got popular in the 60's it was all about pace of play and finding the ball anywhere on the poperty.
   It is a tough issue to deal with today. We need to get rid of some trees, it would be great if we could maintain fewer acres of rough but what do we do with this space.  What is natural looking?  What will the golfers demand?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I am a member of a Parkland housing development course in the Great Northwest.  The unique geology/geography of the ice ages stacked glacial till 100's of feet deep.  The resulting flora and fauna resembles a savannah more than anything else.  Gary/White Oaks interspersed with what I have heard described as 'Olympic Fescue'.  

The Course is now Poa/Rye.  No new Oaks grow in a constantly mowed environment.  A once lively group of natural beasts are now nearly non-existent.  And many members want it green and mowed.  

What is wrong with creating natural areas on a Parkland course that mimic the original area prior to GOLF.  It would promote wildlife, promote the original natural species of Oak and create a wider palette of color and texture.  

Comments?

[RJ_Daley]

Maybe we should not just refer to these areas as fescue rough areas.  Besides, there are many cultivars of these fescues and it is hard to tell which you are referring to.  Every climate has its own native blend of grasses.  Perhaps "native prairie cover" is a better term.  On the links courses of GB&I, those roughs are not just fescues, are they?  Aren't they mixes of various coastal grass species and wheat grasses, etc?  On the Nebraska native prairies, the desirable native grasses aren't just fescue.  There are various species and cultivars of gramma grasses, brome grasses and wild wheat grasses.  Here in Wisconsin, one would find one mix of diverse grasses on native prairie, and quite another in native prairies nearer the transistion zone, it seems to me.  Which native prairie cover and grass qualities are you looking for to add to the asthetic enjoyment and functionality of your golf course?

Cos, nothing is the matter with creating natural areas to mimic original vegitation characteristics.  Unless, the area becomes so dense, so overgrown and undergrown to render all play into those areas, dead.  Then it is nothing more than a vegitative hazard and might as well red line it as such for ball drops with penalty. Too much of that is no good.  

[Michael J. Moss]

RJ Daley,
Upon speaking to our golf course superintendent this morning and telling him about this thread, he confessed that too much water has hit the areas via our irrigation system. This combined with the wet season we've had in the NY area has created the lost ball potential for shots that find this stuff. We're going to adjust the heads with "half-circles" (I think that's what I was told) which should mitigate the over-watering.

I think we're trying to achieve a more wispy look that a player can recover from or at least find his/her ball. The only concern I have now is whether this "beach grasses" look is authentic or artificial. It will look a hell of a lot better than the erosion, weak grass and weeds that we were looking at before.

PS - Thanks for the help you clearly understand agronomy.

[Paul Richards]

Anyone that wonders IF fescue belongs on a parkland course should see The Country Club, in Pepper Pike, OH.  It is a magnificent parkland course that blends the fescue in with the trees and makes the concept work very well together.

[Joe Hancock]

RJ has a good point concerning terminology. Not all grass allowed to grow to seedhead stage is fescue! Too many courses allow whatever they were maintaining before to grow up for the "natural" look.

These natural areas, when carefully selected for variety, can be great for course definition and seperation....as long as the establishment and maintenance of these areas are also carefully controlled. Most often, the best control for these areas is to eliminate all irrigation, fertility, etc. Annual mowing and/ or controlled burns should be the maintenance regime.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hermanbarron,

I tend to agree with Jim Michaels and RJ Daley.

Fescue under the throw radius of your irrigation system will present difficult conditions versus fescue left to nature's hand, despite the fact that it hasn't stopped raining since
March 21, 2003.

I'm also not so sure that I agree with the philosophy of focusing solely, or primarily, on the long ball hitter, with respect to the consequences of an errant shot

Architects usually seek to forge a balanced tactical challenge for every level of golfer, and don't favor or disfavor any particular element of the membership.

Creating another hazard, strictly in the drive zone of a
"specific type" of player seems penal or contrary to the architects design intent.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Dave_Miller]

Herr Barron:
Fescue does not belong on Parkland courses.  This is the reaction to seeing Shinnecock on TV and everyone all of sudden wanting the Shinnecock syndrome or "The Long Island Look".  
This is a form of the Augusta syndrome in a different way.
 
These so called fescue areas look awful on a parkland course, cause an incredible increase in playing time and makes one think the club cannot afford to cut the grass

You're in West Chester not East Hampton.
Best,
Dave

[Michael J. Moss]

Dave Miller,

In my original post I described our Club's decision to grow out the rough on steep terrain where it is hard to hold grass in addition to other areas. I disagree with your assertion that parkland course should be devoid of fescue.  After reading your response, I went to the "Courses by Country" section of GCA to see if any of the courses profiled had photos which could serve as examples. I came up with the following and I don't think they are trying to emulate the "Hamptons" look:

1) Wannamoisett- the photo of their "famed" par-3 third hole clearly has fescue or native grasses grown out just left of the left greenside bunker. This grass looks very thick (not wispy) and is potentially in play. I've never played the course but it certainly looks to be parkland.

2) Salem- the photo on the first page of their "all-world 13th hole" shows fescue short and left of the green coming right down off of a hill practically to the fairway. I don't think they're trying to copy Shinnecock. In the profile the course is described as being on "rugged New England terrain." Their use of fescue looks very appropriate in this case.

3) Piping Rock- I don't know if Locust Valley, which is on Long Island, is considered parkland or heathland so this might be a weaker example. However, it's clear in these photos that fescue has been grown out in places. It looks terrific on the area that was originally a polo field. What is interesting to me is that it appears to be paced on the outside of the right greenside bunker on their par-3 Biarritz. Piping Rock looks to be beautifully manicured with a look that cannot be called shaggy or links-like. However one describes it, their use of tall grass works very well.

[Dave_Wilber]

I realize this is an old thread, but the Fescue thing is kind of my thing and I can't resist here.

This is general commentary and may not apply to the topic starter's course...but I have to say that my perspective on Fescue be in in a Parkland, Heathland or even Linksland situation is that done wrong...it is just that...wrong. And for the sake of reference here, it seems to be that we are talking about Fescue in the rough and not on short mowed playing surfaces.

I'm pretty stunned lately at what is going on in use of fescue in rough areas. Especially small (or smaller) "committee project" type applications. The nasty jungle that usually results is sad. What is even worse is that the grass is blamed rather than the management of that grass.

Fescue rough has to be worked into a poverty situation. Limited or no irrigation. Limited or no fertilizer. Well drained poverty soils. And if the drainage isn't great, at least some creation of slope enough to get water away.

It is really hard to do and really hard to get right. In all of our grassing conversations when using fescue, perhaps the most difficult part is the rough and the transition from fairway. The worst possible situation is the automatic lost ball in the fescue 2 paces off the short grass.

Specific fescue variety and cultivar selection is critical. More so than other turfgrasses. In the States (and other places) the turfgrass academic types have made some tragic mistakes in not looking at what will happen when various grasses are combined with each other and in various seed count situations. The American Superintendent really doesn't have a good information base to go to for help in this area. This is changing, but too slowly.

We've learned that you can go into these areas that over develop and use string trimmers not as buzz cutters but as tools to hack away a bit and thin the sward. We've learned to use Ballast or gravel type materials to plate areas to create poverty soil situations. We've learned when and where to use what grasses. Guess what..all of this was old school stuff that most if not all of the old school UK greenkeepers knew and understood that you had to do to avoid nasty fescue issues.

I'm always sad when I hear of yet another Fescue Jungle that leads people to stop using these grasses or to make blanket statements about their not belonging. Fescue works, but it's not for kids.

<turfgrass rant over/>

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Hermanbarron:

On new course construction we do not irrigate or fertilize the out areas, beyond the primary rough, so lack of irrigation is key.  Also, whenseeding, if you use a fescue mixture you need to seed at a much lower rate than recommended.  We have seede at about 60 lbs./acre.  to answer your question, my understanding is that fesue is not native.  It is an imported grass.  A more native and appropriate mixture for these out areas might be as follows:

2.50 PLS lbs./acre Big Bluestem
2.50 PLS lbs./acre Indiangrass
2.0 PLS lbs./acre Little Bluestem
2.00 PLS lbs./acre Canada Wild Rye
.25 PLS lbs./acre Switchgrass
20.00 PLS lbs./acre Hard Fescue

Certainly, you want to go through your superintendent or agronomists when sifting through all of the amateur reports here, with the exception of Mr. Wilbur.

Also, If you are considering up grading your irrigation system it is best to clear out the trees, expand the fairways if appropriate then set your irrigation about 10' outside your fairway line adjust to part circles after growing in the outer areas.  And keep the water and fertilizer off these outer areas.

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