[Patrick_Mucci]

For the architects, contractors and superintendents.


Do punchbowls require specific sites where drainage is a natural ingredient ?


Or, with today's earthmoving equipment can a site conducive to a punchbowl be easily created ?


Punchbowls have endured for over 100 years and to my limited knowledge, very few of them have been destroyed, which is a testament to their architectural merit.


So, why don't we see more of them in modern designs ?

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

From my response in the other thread:

Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on Today at 11:27:51 pm<blockquote>Joe & Tom,


If they're so much fun, and I agree that they are, why aren't more of them incorporated in modern designs ?
</blockquote>
Pat,

I think liability is part of it. Not for safety concerns, but for agronomics. Historically, punchbowl greens would be best sited on sandy soils, due to their collective nature. Today we "engineer" the soil profile to accommodate drainage, but there is always the fear of failure, so surface drainage is almost always the safeguard.

There is a punchbowl green on an Engh course here in Michigan that, despite subsurface drainage in the green, had to rely on a surface grated opening in the putting surface to release water to the pipe system fast enough to facilitate play. That, in my opinion, is a poor implementation of design.

Now you have me contemplating something bigger, as far as design is concerned; The Fear of Failure. That's another thread, however.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,


I hear everything you're saying, but how do you account for longevity that the punchbowls designed and built by the ODG's have enjoyed ?

[Joe Hancock]

I don't know of the accuracy of this statement, but I would presume the common denominator in long-serving punchbowl greens would be well drained, sandy soils/ subsoils.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,
 
The 1st hole on the 4th nine at Montclair, a Raynor, has been there since the 20's and the soil is not the greatest.
 
While the green does enjoy the advantage of having the terrain fall away sharply to the West, it does sit well below the fairway and land to the East.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Drainage is certainly a concern, as is ware/traffic.


Which direction is the green sloping? Is there an open side to the bowl? How many ways in/out are there? Is the green itself the low point? Is it more the product of a depression or cut, or is the green surrounded by fill/mounding creating the bowl?


There are different ways to go about solving the problem of punchbowls and drainage. Sand and free draining soil always helps.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Joe,
 
The 1st hole on the 4th nine at Montclair, a Raynor, has been there since the 20's and the soil is not the greatest.
 
While the green does enjoy the advantage of having the terrain fall away sharply to the West, it does sit well below the fairway and land to the East.

I always liked this hole. I think the steep and tiered green fits nicely. It works well with the significant overall slope of the hole/landscape.

[Sean_A]

Pat


Even on well draining soils punchers can be a drainage nightmare.  Ours consistently has the worst conditioned green on the course. 


When punchers were originally conceived it was partly to retain water.  It wasn't until the heathland revolution that archies realized this wasn't necessarily the case and of course watering system made the idea of water retention completely moot.  While not true punchers, tons of greens were designed in a gathering style so as to retain water and most are problematic if a club has a tight maintenance budget. 


I would also say there wasn't anything like the pressure of today's maintenance to worry about.  Its much harder to keep punchers firm, fast, true and consistent with the other greens. I spose its not so different from bunker maintenance.  Archies are desprate to funnel water away from sand...same for greens.  As Joe stated, if an archie takes a risk he could end up looking the prize idiot. 


Ciao   

[Jon Wiggett]

It wasn't until the heathland revolution that archies realized this wasn't necessarily the case

This piqued my interest Sean. What was the 'heathland revolution' and when did it happen? I know many examples in the West Yorkshire area of heathland/moorland courses built in the 20's and 30's that were still dew ponding the greens.

Jon

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean & Jaeger,


The negatives and concerns you list would seem to demand the eradication of all or most punchbowls, yet, they seem to have survived, mostly intact, for 100 years.


We're the ODG's more skilled in drainage close to 100 years ago.


Jaeger,


With regard to your list of issues, and your familiarity with # 1 on the 4th nine, you should know that kids used to sleigh ride and toboggan over that green and that green used to host parties at night, with bonfires in the winter.


Yet, it remains intact and functional.


Many, if not most punchbowls, have entrance and exit points, with the 1st hole on the 4th nine being a perfect example.


I can't think of an unsuccessful punchbowl inspite of the negatives mentioned

[Ryan Farrow]

Pat,


I designed a punchbowl green in Inner Mongolia, China while I was working on project for Schmidt-Curley. I never would have proposed the idea if we had poor draining soil, but we were on pure sand.


The way we set it up was by surface draining the entire area slowly off the front in order to eliminate any standing water. I heard that NGLA  had a difficult time with their punchbowl over the winter, and wanted to make sure things were as straightforward as possible for the inexperienced crew on-site. Unfortunately, the green didn't make it to opening day and neither did the course. So this one is NLE. China 


As Joe mentioned, FUN was the keyword, but the angle of the green and slopes that feed into the putting surface made any approach from the left side of the fairway extremely challenging. The hole was also driveable, but tee shots needed to carry a large sand dune on the right.


By the way, the C&C course at Sand Valley has a punchbowl par 3 with the low point contained in the green surface. There is a buried underground pipe that drains the green during winter to help avoid any agronomic problems. Also, it is sited on well draining soil.




Here are a few photos of the Punchbowl in Inner Mongolia:


From the green looking back toward the tee, which is located at the high point directly above the flagstick):



The green drains from the foreground of the picture to a catch basin off the green and left of the flagstick.




This shot is from the left side of the hole, where you can start to see a bit of the flagstick:





And from the tee with no view of the putting surface:

[Tom_Doak]

The Macdonald / Raynor punchbowls [6 at The Creek, 12 at Chicago Golf] almost always surface drain out to the back right between a gap in the mounds.  If they surface drain, there are really no construction or maintenance issues to building one, provided there isn't a lot of surface water coming ONTO the green from the outside and being funneled to one point.  [The greens mentioned above are surrounded by berms, so the only water going through them is the rainfall that hits the green.]


It's possible to have a green that is a true punchbowl [a drainage pocket inside the green], but it doesn't work so well in places that have winters, because frost and ice damage can be significant factors.  The National Golf Links has more than a dozen greens where a portion of the green is a drainage pocket ... I know this because I saw the damage there after a bad winter.  They have tried to alleviate it by putting drainage underneath the greens that they open up to the surface [an open drainage pipe the size of a cup] after the course closes for the season.


In warmer climates, having a pocket in the green just means you may have water sitting on the green for an hour or two after a really heavy rain, and that part of the green will be more susceptible to disease or to poa annua infestation.  That's why the majority of punchbowls are built with surface drainage.

[archie_struthers]

 




I've got a question as to what is truly a "punch bowl" green .  We've got one at Greate Bay that has the physical appearance of one but is actually elevated above the fairway area in front of the green  #5 .


We built a neat green in a  big hollow  ( #11 Twisted Dune ) that is well below the fairway elevation but the green isn't circular so that it "collects " the ball.  The hollow might though.  What's the definition lads?

[Jaeger Kovich]

The Macdonald / Raynor punchbowls [6 at The Creek, 12 at Chicago Golf] almost always surface drain out to the back right between a gap in the mounds.  If they surface drain, there are really no construction or maintenance issues to building one, provided there isn't a lot of surface water coming ONTO the green from the outside and being funneled to one point.  [The greens mentioned above are surrounded by berms, so the only water going through them is the rainfall that hits the green.]

What I think works really well about #12 at Chicago too is that the water surface drains out the right, while the player traffic goes out the back left (towards the trees).

[Joe Hancock]

The Macdonald / Raynor punchbowls [6 at The Creek, 12 at Chicago Golf] almost always surface drain out to the back right between a gap in the mounds.  If they surface drain, there are really no construction or maintenance issues to building one, provided there isn't a lot of surface water coming ONTO the green from the outside and being funneled to one point.  [The greens mentioned above are surrounded by berms, so the only water going through them is the rainfall that hits the green.]

#12 at Tamarack (Banks) has the notches in the back right side of the berm as well.

[Michael Blake]

Lulu's is a very cool one but it frequently floods.

[Adam Lawrence]

Jim Engh like punchbowls and there's a really deep one at Fossil Trace where there's absolutely nowhere for the water to go. I asked how it was drained, and was told that there is an area at the very front of the green that is lower than the rest, so there is a big drain there, and a large sump pump extracting the water!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Do WE like the idea of the "notches"?  It is a very geometric/engineered approach, and of the form follows function train of thought. At the same time it adds so much to the hard to describe charm of the Mac/Raynor/Banks holes.

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is a picture of the 9th green at The Greenbrier from the 1920's.  This picture is taken from behind the green looking back at the hole. There appears to be a gap or groove in the left center of the green between the mounds to assist with drainage, much like Tom described earlier.  In this case, the left side is naturally lower than the right side of the green.  Unfortunately, this green no longer resembles a Punchbowl.

[Sean_A]

It wasn't until the heathland revolution that archies realized this wasn't necessarily the case

This piqued my interest Sean. What was the 'heathland revolution' and when did it happen? I know many examples in the West Yorkshire area of heathland/moorland courses built in the 20's and 30's that were still dew ponding the greens.

Jon

Jon


The heathland revolution was really the start of modern architecture.  Guys like Colt were looking to make targets visible (hence a ton of plateau greens) rather than blind in hollows.  The realization was that the heathlands could make this style of golf possible without strong worries about design centred around water retention.  I believe that the agronomic and design side of the things during the heathland boom was hand in glove and not by chance. 


Pat


A large part of CB Mac's legacy was his codification of hole types (ie templates).  There is a strong argument that through him the concept of punchers has survived in the US.  But this doesn't mean punchers come without problems.  Thankfully, some clubs felt the problems were worth overcoming or putting up with for the sake of retaining punchers. 



Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for the explanation Sean. I suspect that you are correct in this and that the advances made on the agronomic side was the run up to the founding of STRI in Bingley which started in the late 20's.

[GBoring]

Pat, 


We have a lot of greens that hold water.  Not exactly what I call Punchbowls but most of them do hold water in our birdbath areas.  Several years ago we applied XGD Drainage to all the greens that works tremendous in the Summer.  However, our problems occur during the Winter when the soil is frozen.  We have had two pretty rough years in those low areas of our greens.  We have made some changes to the greens in an attempt to move water for the winter and will make the repairs in the Spring.

[Jeff_Brauer]

On page 100-101 of "Golf Has Never Failed Me" Ross writes in a caption that "This punch bowl green is doomed to failure. Water will pour off the steep slopes and on to the putting surface, filling it, like a punch bowl." Somewhere else, I recall a similar quote concerning No. 10 at Inverness, where he recommends a swale behind the green rather than a large natural slope flowing water on the green.

In the accompanying text, he recommends greens sited in natural punch bowls, get grass hollows between the steep slope and the putting surface to divert the water away from the green, and dispose of it.  He also recommends grass hollows on the sides of fairways to catch hooks and slices, maybe the first proponent of containment!

But, back on point, gravity wins.  The internet and all its experts won't change that.  Every generation seems to take a stab at bending the old rules in the name of creativity.  Almost always with the same results previously obtained.  Good engineering means you always, and I mean always, (sorry Jim Engh and Mike DeVries) have a surface drainage path off a green.   Tiles and XGD help, of course, but treat the symptom where surface drainage treats the cause and is the much preferred method of design.

Heck, even when I have a green adjacent catch basin, in case it plugs, I make sure there is an overland flow over flow at least a foot lower than the lowest point of the green, so water never backs up on the green.

BTW, in modern times, you have to consider grass types.  If you have Bermuda banks, and Bent putting surfaces, where certain typically used chemicals work on Bermuda, but kill Bent.  In those cases, even draining a 2-3 foot high mound on the green can be problematical, a problem CBM probably didn't realize or need to work around, in those more natural maintenance days.

[Jeff_Brauer]

It has been pointed out to me off line that Ross writings were done early in his career, left in a drawer as he got too busy, and then heavily edited by Ron Whitten.  That does open up the possibility that Ross changed his mind at some point later and actually built punch bowl greens, making any passage related to them possibly inaccurate.

I gave it some thought, and still believe my main point holds up.  After all, he did have a chapter title (which presumably was Whitten and not Ross) of "drainage, drainage, drainage."  He did recommend one or two punch bowl greens per course in the same text, saying they shouldn't be overdone, because they lack the same challenge by bringing all balls back to the surface.  That reasoning seems to prevail, with proportionality (discussed elsewhere) being violated by having the architecture help a poor shot, in keeping the number of punch bowls to the minimum.

But, the practicalities of drainage had a lot to do with it!

[Joe Hancock]

Mexico internet issues...sorry!

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