[Carlyle Rood]

The following is "THE IDEAL 18" as selected by Robert Trent Jones in the 21 June 1954 issue of Time magazine.  I thought you might find it entertaining.

(1) 18th at Cleveland's Canterbury G.C., 441 yds, par 4.
(2) 2nd at Atlanta's Peachtree G.C., 560 yds, par 5.
(3) 11th at Augusta COUNTRY Club, 445 yds, par 4.
(4) 3rd at Ponte Vedra Links, 537 yds, par 5.
(5) 4th at Baltusrol, 183 yds, par 3
(6) 16th at National Links, 365 yds, par 4
(7) 7th at Broadmoor Golf Club, 466 yds, par 4
( 9th at Yale G.C., 225 yds, par 3
(9) 14th at Olympia Fields, 440 yds, par 4
OUT, 3,662 yds, par 36
(10) 16th at Oakland Hills, 399 yds, par 4
(11) 13th at Pine Valley, 446 yds, par 4
(12) 16th at Cypress Point G.C., 222 yds, par 3
(13) 13th at The Dunes, 590 yds, par 5
(14) 18th at Pinehurst (No. 2?), 423 yds, par 4
(15) 15th at Oakmont C.C., 458 yds, par 4
(16) 16th at Augusta National G.C., 190 yds, par 3
(17) 16th at Merion G.C., 445 yds, par 4
(18) 18th at Pebble Beach, 540 yds, par 5
IN, 3,713 yds, par 36
TOTAL, 7,375 yds, par 72

Nearly seventy-four hundred yards must have been a whopper in 1954.  What would that translate to now?  With 1% change in distance every 5 years, that's 8,147 yds in 2004.  With 1% change in distance every 10 years, that's 7,751 yds in 2004.

[George Pazin]

Quite a few of those holes are his, no?

[Robert Kimball]

George, that jumped out at me as well. There were also alot of his re-do's (16th ANGC, 4Baltusrol).. . .

[Dan Kelly]

Was he limited to courses in the United States of America?

[JakaB]

I think he was a great mind and a visionary which really makes me question the par sequence....with no land constraints he chooses to start 4,5,4,5..

[allysmith]

Is it RTJs ideal 18 USA stylee or Ideal 18 period? If its the latter its a wee bit on the insular side ??

[Carlyle Rood]

RTJ is limiting the list to holes in the United States.  The article was titled "U.S. Golf Holes."

It's also a de facto article on the upcoming U.S. Open at Baltusrol and some background on Sam Snead (who is featured on the cover).

[Michael Dugger]

All those "architect" 18 and "ideal" 18 are dumb.

Pure fantasy crap.  Let's start critiquing golf courses "designed" on EA Sports Tiger Woods 2003, it has about the same value.  

[Carlyle Rood]

mdugger:

The "Ideal 18" list I posted was composed by one of the most prolific golf course designers of the 20th century--and he authored it nearly FIFTY YEARS AGO!  I think it may even be more interesting than video games!  

[Michael Dugger]

I mean no disrespect to you, Carlyle, none at all...and I don't wish to pee all over your thread.  However, have any of these lists of the ideal 18 holes ever really taught you anything?  If so, what was it?  

Isn't it always the same stuff?  18th at Pebble, 16th at Cypress, 12th at Augusta....etc.  Hasn't it become universally true that these are the "greatest" holes?  On 2nd thought, is it possible for there to be a "Universally great 18?"  To me it seems to be putting the horse before the cart.  Ideal 18 seems to imply a 'tabula rasa', and does not take a REAL, tangible piece of land into consideration.  Thus it's pure fantasy, a la Tiger Woods 2003

Perhaps something is suppose to be said for the "particular order" in which Mr. Jones' list is compiled.  Again, fantasy, not real.  I think someone pointed out that he starts out 4,5,4,5. Why is this ideal?  Isn't this just a bunch of B.S.?  Are we to believe that he really advocated this routing as "ideal?"  Then why not build more courses that match it?  AND, Cypress 16 is better as the 12th then as a 16th hole?  Why?  Says who?  How come?  I disagree?

But who am I to disagree, I'm mdugger, not RT Jones.  Which is sort of my point.  Ideal to RT Jones.  Not ideal to mdugger.

Opinion not fact.  50 years ago, big deal!!  

Prolific makes his opinion fact?  Dare I say no.  There is no ideal, only the thought of ideal in your head.  

[JakaB]

Mud dobber,

It has been proven over the course of many great tournaments that a penal par 3 is perfectly placed as the 12th hole with two par fives following to add to suspense and a possible comeback....and to think this great visionary knew this 50 years ago is amazing.  People need to get past the in your face aspects of this man and learn to appreciate his subtleties....this list could lead to interesting conversation if we could just get past the party line.

[Michael Dugger]

jakab, respectfully, the following bit, taken from your post, is horse crap.

"It has been proven over the course of many great tournaments that a penal par 3 is perfectly placed as the 12th hole with two par fives following to add to suspense and a possible comeback."

You want to quote party lines?  Well, the scenario you just depicted above sure sounds a lot like ANGC.  Puh leez.  Why can't this penal par three be #13?  Why not?

You are the free thinker of GCA.com.  Always telling us to use our own noodles and "down with the old dead guys."  We don't need to read what RTJones has to say, we need our own unique ideas.

Which is it now?  Sounds like bias to me.  Use whatever fits best for the time being.  Not a lot of consistancy there.  Good gosh, now I sound like Mucci!

Really, though, what's gotten into you today?  

RTJones crusade.

[JakaB]

MD,

I don't think you could flip 12 and 16 at AGNC and have as great a tournament...undisputable...I didn't know this until today when I read this list.

I have never played a course the RTJ touched that I did not love....I was born in 1960 and think I may have lived the best possible 43 years in the history of man..and to think RTJ built courses during my infancy that have stood this most remarkable advance in technologies (not just golf) makes me admire the man.

Who else besides George Washington Carver was such a visionary...I do love Jip (smooth).

[Carlyle Rood]

Let's review.  mdugger thinks "Ideal 18" lists are idiotic.  That point is now documented.  Thank you for expressing your opinion.

Moving on...

Did anyone else find it remarkable that RTJ's 18 holes covered SEVEN THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED SEVENTY-FIVE YARDS...in 1954!  That's a long damn course given the equipment and technology of the time.

Also, there seemed to be a preponderance of holes from the last nine of the originals--particularly the 16th and 18th holes.

[Tim_Weiman]

Carlyle:

What struck me most was RTJ's choice of #18 at Canterbury for his opening hole. True, the hole has a pretty wide fairway. But, it sure seems like he wants you to start the round with your guns blazing. Certainly no way to ease into the round.

I'm also curious how RTJ defined "ideal". Did the original article spell that out?

It sure looks like he had the professional level golfer in mind rather than your typical weekend mid handicapper.

[Norbert P]

 From the chapter (V) titled "The Ideal Golf Course" from the book "The Architectural Side of Golf" by H.N. Wethered and Tom Simpson:

   "...Such discussions, however, have a certain value, since they make an appeal to the imagination.  It is an amusing method of expressing what we can never hope to realise, quite apart from the question whether it would be desirable to do so.  And in addition it is an excellent test of criticism upon a subject on which there can never be an agreement between any two students of the game."

 Prior to that passage was an interesting posit:  

"  ... a further question is whether anyone after going to the fatigue of composing the ideal course would care to play over it."  

(By permission of public domain.)

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