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Mark_Fine

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The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« on: September 20, 2003, 06:31:42 PM »
I believe most of the Golden Age golf architects followed what I’ll call “the bell curve” of golf course design.  In other words, they all had a comfort zone or a style or a design philosophy that they knew they liked and that they believe worked.  Some changed their philosophies over the course of their careers but the majority of their designs they stuck with this main area under their “bell curve”.

At times they would venture outside (a standard deviation or two from the middle zone) and do some things different due to site specific conditions, but core of their design philosophy generally was usually still there.  Furthermore, other than maybe Raynor, all architects once in a while would go out on the tangents (far from the center of the bell curve) and do something radical.  But I believe that in general, most architects had a design philosophy and they stuck pretty close to it.  

Think about it; how many times did Thomas do Flynn style bunkers or vice versa?  How many times do you find Flynn greens that are as wild in undulation as Tillinghast?  How often do you come across Ross courses that remind you of some of Mackenzie’s work, …?

Every architect had a style and though you will always find exceptions (some more than others) I believe the core of most architects work will show a fair amount of consistency.  

Isn' this the same with most modern architects today?  I would venture to say that many of us if blind folded and taken to a golf course, could figure out in two or three guesses who designed it.  

Any thoughts?

By the way, I just played Skokie.  I really enjoyed it but would describe it as Ross on steriods with touches of Langford scattered everywhere.  Either Ross was out on one of those tangents I discribed above or Prichard got very liberal in his intrepretation.  I did hear from members and the pro at the club that it was not a restoration but more a return to classic style architecture.  


« Last Edit: September 20, 2003, 06:34:20 PM by Mark_Fine »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2003, 06:46:02 PM »
Mark,
Where do you come up with this stuff?

I can assure you that there is, and never was a bell curve that these guys designed by. If they saw something they thought was going to be cool, they did it.

They didn't build golf courses for a good grade. They built them because they were the few that knew what a golf course was, and they did it for a living and happened to be passionate about it.

Bell Curve.................Mark, instead of coming up with something like this, go read Golf Architecture in America over again...Better  yet, read the Architectural Side of Golf! Find something from there that might be of interest then trying to relate this to a.....................Bell Curve!

 :)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2003, 06:49:11 PM »
And Mark, You get a "D"!

Try studying harder next time! Plus the class is outside ready to kick your ass for screwing up the Bell Curve! They want to be seen as smart!


They're also ready to show you how to get to Special Ed. Please try to pay attention!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2003, 06:57:29 PM »
Tommy,
Sorry but I've read those books and also played and studied a few golf courses.  How many Ross, Flynn and Tillinghast courses for example have you played and studied  ;)  If you don't think these guys showed any consistency in their designs you've been reading too much and not out there "in the field enough" seeing what they actually did and trying to figure out what's been changed over the years.

You said for yourself when you were first back East a couple years ago to play some of the classic courses, it was like a revelation.  Maybe you need to get out of California more often  ;)  

 

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2003, 07:06:37 PM »
I think Tom Paul said it best when we were playing golf together this past week out at Glen View in Chicago during the Flynn Invitational, "These guys would laugh at us for how serious we take this stuff".  

By the way Tommy, they did build courses for a good grade.  That was why most of them (the better ones) were doing it in the first place.  They didn't like what was done in the past (they gave those courses low grades) and they wanted to improve golf course design.  They thought they knew what was good and they tried to stick with what they knew was good as often as possible.  They all had guiding principles and didn't just wing it from site to site.  I never said they didn't vary from their standards from time to time in fact I said that they did.

Mark_Fine

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Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2003, 07:25:08 PM »
If someone can convince me that Ross for example could design 130 or so courses on land that he never set foot on, without having some preconceived design philosophies of how to properly layout and route a good golf course, than I'll accept my "D" and remove this post  :)
Mark

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2003, 10:32:06 PM »
Mark,
No, I don't have your resume of courses. I'll never dispute that, but I'll bet you I have seen a lot more failures then you have which I think makes me more appreciative then you when I do get to see the great ones.  (BTW, since when did you become such an elitist?) We all can't be going out of town on business and golf at the same time. Of course though, I do have to realize that I don't have Rees Jones & Ault & Clark courses popping up everywhere in my backyard either!

I saw Lehigh, you told me it was the best; I have a witness to that. I have also seen parts of Philly CC, Merion when it was in its prime and a lot of Shinnecock too. I 've seen and played what is perceived as one of Raynor's best--Yale, a lot of Piping Rock; some Creek, and studied my pictures and images of Lido on the whole,  as well as got a birds eye view--my very first view of the Great State of New York of the Lido site itself (a true fact, albeit an eerie one.) plus the expert tuition of Uncle George Bahto.

Ross, Well, I have only played three, Plainfield (which may be one of his best) the quirky gems called Lu Lu and Gulph Mills, and I got a pretty good tour of Aronomink.

Tillinghast, well, I have a lot more there then you assume (ASS-ume) Brookside 1 & 2, Virginia CC which of course were done with Billy Bell, but I can say have a lot of Tillinghast features to them; SFGC; Winged Foot-East & West; and Fenway.

I don't pretend to be an authority on any of these architects, but I do think I have had a pretty good view of them all sides considered.

Accept your "D" grade and do better the next time, or I'll instruct the class to dump you into a trash can during lunch. :)


TEPaul

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2003, 07:13:51 AM »
"I think Tom Paul said it best when we were playing golf together this past week out at Glen View in Chicago during the Flynn Invitational, "These guys would laugh at us for how serious we take this stuff"."

I did say that to Mark in Chicago but I didn't mean to say that the old guys (or any architects) took what they did lightly. What I meant by that is some of us take every little detail and nuance of some architecture as if it was part of some grand master scheme with every little thing having some exact meaning which many of us speculate about and discuss on here.

At least when some of the architects I know read some of this stuff on here that some of us say they do laugh about how seriously we can get. Some of my favorite architects sometimes talk about how things happen and come to be and often they happen for the oddest reasons--many times  by accident or in the solving of something else possibly almost unrelated.  
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 08:50:56 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2003, 08:18:21 AM »
Tommy,
All I am suggesting is that I believe most architects have a style (or at least some basic design concepts) that they often fall back on.  If you see enough of their work (or what is left of it) it shows through.  That is not being an elitist, that is just sharing an observation from years of study.
Mark

Note:  Trust me, I've seen a lot of failures.  You forget I get a list of "best new courses" to visit every year for GD and many of those are not what you would call the best.




T_MacWood

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2003, 09:59:25 AM »
Part of an architects style is his ability to best use the land. One of the charcteristics of many modern styles is their ability to over power the land. IMO letting Mother Nature dictate produces more interesting golf course.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 10:01:25 AM by Tom MacWood »

RJ_Daley

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Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2003, 12:43:24 PM »
Following on to Tom MacWood's statement,  each of the architects, modern or classic, learned a "method" as much as followed a style when working with certain type of land characteristics.  When working in sand barrens, they reflect the methods they learned to shape and create features in that specific meduim.  When working in tighter soils and parkland terrain they learned other methods to shape and hold together features, and of course techniques to drain the land.  They may have some pattern to routing as a matter of how they see utilization of the terrain most efficiently, but I doubt it is readily identifiable.  

I don't see Dr MacKenzie following just one style exclusively.  Perhaps a certain tendency in pattern shape of bunkers at Crystal Downs, Ohio State- Scarlet, or Pasatiempo, because the land quality is specific, but that work is certainly diverse from Cypress Pt or Royal Melbourne sand based terrain.  His associates and construction teams certaily influenced his design styles.  Maxwell greens, Russell shaping, American Construction Co. techniques all played a part.  

Coore and Crenshaw are no different.  There is no bell curve exactly.  From what I have observed (mostly in pictures) the terrain and soil dictates the style far more so than some defined parameters of style.  C&C associates all have their developed construction techniques and tendancies, that translate to an imprint on each of their work efforts.  Jeff Bradley will have a techique that will vary from James Duncan's or Craigs or Dan Proctor, or even touches added by guys like Mike O'Neil.  There is no specific identifiable pattern between places like Friars Head, Cuscowilla, Notre Dame, Hidden Creek, Kapalua and Talking Stick because the land and weather only allows for certain techiques.  Maxwell influenced C&C on their green ideals, but everything becomes adaptive to land and resources that exist.

Doak and his Renaissance team are no different.  And, as I have mentioned before, some cross polination of associates has taken place.  How do you say that Doak has a bell curve of identifiable design character comparing Lost Dues to Highpoint to Texas Tech to Pac Dunes to Cape Kidnappers?  I just don't think it is such an identifiable "comfort zone" that has their fingerprints readily attributable.  I will admit that certain archies like Ross and Raynor have more ridged patterns than others.  

But, much of it is learned and then shared techique because the specific land only allows for certain design approaches.  Conventional wisdom as to what was desired strategy of the basics of the game from its origins were also common knowledge.  How is it that Langford and Raynor have so much stuff that looks similar if not for learned techniques for certain terrain and conventional wisdom of the strategy of golf and the object of how it was to be played?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2003, 02:26:23 PM »
Dick, Thank you for proving a point to me. I think you get where I'm going with this.

Hope your feeling better also!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2003, 03:01:50 PM »
Dick,
Let me pose the question a little differently - If all these architects were given the same piece of property, would they all design the same style of golf course?  What would distinguish one architect from the other?  
Mark

T_MacWood

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2003, 03:25:05 PM »
Mark
What is the point of this thread?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2003, 03:25:47 PM »
Mark, Of course not! If Michael Angelo were to look at Leonardo Divinci and paint the Mona Lisa, would it come out the same way or even the same style? Of course not! He might have him riding a donkey for all we know (assuming what many believe that the Mona Lisa is actually a self-portrait)

I know that sounds a bit hokey, but for crying out loud! we're talking basic theories and principles of art & design. Do any of us think that they would come-up with something similar? Where and how do you think the word critique came from? It was other artists, critiquing other artists on their principles and formulas.

Yes, Donald Ross bunkers would look much different then MacKenzie's, and Tillie would leave in a few trees. I do think that they would have been looking for distinguishable features to place greens and bunkers or quirky elements of downhill sidehill or cant left/cant right.

What would you call the unique tee shot and hill at the 18th at Yale?  Personally, I think it is high-art, where others don't care for it one bit. They don't have the same tastes in art, or the same eye (lense)

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2003, 03:26:24 PM »
Tom, EXACTLY!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2003, 03:58:59 PM »
Mark, that is a fair enough question.  I most certainly don't think they would design the same looking course, nor would it have the same playing strategy nor constrcution efficiency such as drainage system, pattern, or green shaping.  

Perhaps there would be obvious hole corridors that any of them would readily see and feel compelled to incorporate in their routing scheme.  But, definitely we would see them approach overall routing from diverse points of view depending on if they had become comfortable with one basic set of design principles and theory or another.  i.e., inner-outer loop, out and back, returning 9s, set feelings on sequencing of pars, width to wind ratio, and all that sort of thing.

I do feel that we would see some sort of coalescing of construction style to bunkering in a very site specific soil, climate, weather location.  I don't see any of them wanting to do highly flashed face bunkers in heavy rain downpour areas, or cape and bay style CADD block pattern eyecandy on sand barren or prairie links terrain, unless the archie/designer is really dense. I don't think Thomas would have the type of bunkering we see at Riviera at a site like Pac Dunes.  But, I think we would see placement, and relationship with slopes and approaches that have similarities from one designer or team to the next.

And, of course we have the tendancy that certain architects always get the 12-50 million dollar budgets.  That buys alot of identifiable style. Give Fazio a third the construction budget on a site like Pelican Hills, and force him to think about certain efficiencies and more creative methods to drain the property, or place features and hazards sparingly and maximize their strategic impact, and perhaps you wouldn't be able to tell his work as much as when you see him have the big budget and feel compelled to put on a construction-design show and exceed the unlimitted budget (like Kohler quipped about Dye at Whistling Straits) ;).
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2003, 07:27:25 PM »
Dick,
Some reasonable answers and ideas.  Thanks for contributing.  Your comment about high sand faces due to heavy rain areas is interesting.  While out in Chicago this week I took the time to visit five different courses.  One of them was North Shore CC.  As you know, it is an old 1924 Colt, Mackenzie & Alison design.  I also played Skokie and of course Glen View for the Flynn Invitational.  One of the driving forces behind both Glen View and Skokie's "restoration" work was washouts of the bunkers.  It's also one of the reasons almost all of the new bunkers on those two courses show little if any flashed sand.  However, the bunkers at North Shore are the exact opposite and have very high faces as you might expect from CM&A.  According to the folks I talked to at North Shore, they love the bunkers and don't seem to have concerns about the high sand faces.  All three courses are parkland in style and in very close proximity.  Facinating isn't it to see the different styles and philosophies on similar terrain.
Mark

T_MacWood

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2003, 07:41:24 PM »
Mark
The SFGC is more like MacKenzie and Thomas than any of Tillie's eastern courses. Ross's Palm Beach CC and Seminole are more like Thompson or MacKenzie than Inverness or Oakland Hills.George Thomas's Little Merion is like Tom Dunn. Tillie's Brook Hollow reminds me of Fowler. Alison's Hirono is reminisent of Pasatiempo. Flynn's Cascades is unlike his Philadephia work and has some Ross and Raynor character. Thompson's Sleepy Hollow doesn't possess the same flair as Banff or Capilano--both of which remind me of Herbert Strong. Wasn't Aronimink unique for Ross? I don't understand your point.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2003, 08:06:59 PM »
Tom,
I agree with most of your points you just raised but aren't those more the exception than the rule?  I think you would agree that SFGC (particularly the bunkering) is wild even for Tillinghast.  But the greens are not that much different than you would find on many of his other courses.  Frankly I was a little disappointed when I played there in July that Doak softened a few of them and took some of the abruptness out of the contours but I guess I'm too much of a purest.  I realize with current green speed demands, the club wanted more hole locations.  

Do you really think Seminole looks like Thompson?  Not sure the scale of the bunkering is comparable but I could be wrong as I have played very few Thompson courses for comparison.  

The greens at Flynn's Cascades course are very reminesent of Lehigh's as are the bunkers.  If you see some Raynor in that one it could be due to the hillside locations of some of the greensites.

Haven't played Hirono in years and all I remember were the "Alisons" as they call the bunkers.  

But my point was that even in these designs that you point out, I feel there are some basic features/principles that these architects clung to.  Yes they all did some unique designs but if you put there total course collection up for comparison, my feeling (right or wrong) was that it would look like a bell curve in terms of their design styles (especially if you took groupings of there work over certain time periods).  

I definitely agree with Klein in that someone like Ross went through some distinct style changes over the course of his career.  Early on he was "efficient and didn't get carried away with design features", toward the middle he got more concerned about asthetics and features that blended better into the natural landscape and later on he seemed more concerned about cost and maintenance.  

This thread is just an observation and I was curious what others felt about it.  

T_MacWood

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2003, 08:46:31 PM »
Lehigh has boring bunkers?

Yes. As built Seminole and Palm Beach were closer to Thompson and MacKenzie.

"But my point was that even in these designs that you point out, I feel there are some basic features/principles that these architects clung to."

Is this a new revelation? Basic style perhaps, but they style evolved and often changed from site to site.

The more interesting revelation would be why Thompson style changed from Sleepy Hollow and Jasper to Banff and Capilano. What influence to Strong have on Thompson and Flynn. Or why Ross's style in Florida was what it was. Or why Thomas's Eastern and Western work are nothing alike. Or why Flynn's Cascades has such plain bunkering. Or why SFGC and Brook Hollow are so unique. Or why Colt's Tandridge had over 300 bunkers. Or why Alison's Japanese work is aesthetically quite different than his American work. Or why Langford's style looks similar to Raynor.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 08:47:14 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2003, 09:52:52 PM »
Tom,
I sure wouldn't call Lehigh's bunkers exciting.   I'd call them typical of what he built on most of his parkland designs.  They surely are not works of art.  

I don't have answers to the questions you raised but I would say that each of these guys was probably influenced by the other.  If they liked something they saw that someone else did, they might have tried to emulate it.  It might also have had something to do with the varied construction crews that built their golf courses.

Just like Esler told me out at Glen View, a number of his bunkers there look like Nicklaus did them but that was because one of his shapers worked on a number of Nicklaus jobs and "kept doing Nicklaus".  There is no reason to believe the Golden Age guys didn't face the same issues.

T_MacWood

Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2003, 10:01:24 PM »
The Cascade's bunkers are not typical of Flynn's parkland courses.

Is it accurate to call Glen View a Flynn course?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2003, 10:09:05 PM »
What would you say are different about Flynn's bunkers at The Cascades?  

I consider Glen View a Flynn course don't you?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The "bell curve" of golf course design!
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2003, 10:11:18 PM »
Also Tom, would you call Skokie a Ross course?  Robert Powers and I discussed that same question and you might be surprised by his response.  
« Last Edit: September 21, 2003, 10:14:15 PM by Mark_Fine »

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