[Niall C]

Mike


Only if you knock down all three clubhouses !


Niall

[Jonathan Mallard]

So... Riddle me this...


I've read all the comments and concepts about the walk, and the direct link to the boats, etc.


Given all that, why the 8th thru 11th holes apart from the rest of the otherwise 'intact' parcel?

[Kalen Braley]

So... Riddle me this...


I've read all the comments and concepts about the walk, and the direct link to the boats, etc.


Given all that, why the 8th thru 11th holes apart from the rest of the otherwise 'intact' parcel?

Perhaps the original 18 holes included the now lost 4 holes of 19-22.

So to replace these they added 8-11?

[MCirba]

So... Riddle me this...


I've read all the comments and concepts about the walk, and the direct link to the boats, etc.


Given all that, why the 8th thru 11th holes apart from the rest of the otherwise 'intact' parcel?

Because they were well into their cups by that part of the journey. 

[Bob Montle]

One of the books on my ten ft golf shelf has a copy of an 1821 drawing of the old course.
Most of what is now the New and all of the Jubilee was under water.

In 1842 the course consisted of nine narrow holes. "At their broadest, the distance from whins to whins was less than 45 yards." There was just one narrow fairway played in both directions. Surprisingly, the course measured 6460 yds.  Imagine playing those narrow two way fairways with hickory clubs and featheries!  No wonder the scores were high in the few stroke competitions, and no wonder most matches were match play.

The course was widened over the years, especially by Old Tom.  Land was reclaimed from the sea and eventually they have what we see now.

[Marty Bonnar]

Bob,
If your 1821 drawing is the survey by A. Martin, then I'm very much afraid you've misinterpreted the colouring!
Regards,
F.
Oh, and PS, I think the only bit of land 'reclaimed from the sea' was the Bruce embankment...

[Marty Bonnar]

Pete


The March stones delineated a property boundary, not grazing rights although it's possible that grazing was allowed on one side of the boundary and not on the other but you would have needed a fence to effectively control that.


Mike,


St Andrews has a harbour so the boats would have been there or on the beach adjacent to the town rather than at the end of the links, however I think you are right in the sense that where the course is was the route for travellers going to and fro to Leuchars and beyond. After all the bridge at the 1st/18th, that we now know as the Swilcan Bridge, would have been built for travellers and drovers and not purely for the benefit of or if at all for golfers.


Kalen


I think the point here is that they didn't "tame" the land and just went with what they had. Of course over time they would have started making adaptions and "improvements" but in early days I'm sure it would have been pretty basic. I believe at one time golf was largely a winter game as that was when the grass was down.


Niall

Niall, look at these two old maps and you'll see that what we now call the 'swilkin bridge' used to be just the 'golfers bridge' and the 'swilkin bridge' was in fact the original road bridge on the old Cupar Road.

I think!!!!

http://maps.nls.uk/towns/detail.cfm?id=398

http://maps.nls.uk/towns/reform/page.cfm?id=2628

Cheers
F.

[Niall C]

FBD


Agreed on the naming of the other Swilken Bridge although I'm dubious that what we know call the Swilken Bridge was built purely for golfers.


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

Well it can't have been, can it, it's too old.


Wikipedia says it was built at least 700 years ago to help shepherds get livestock across the burn.

[Niall C]

surely a reputable journalist would trust wikipedia ? 


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

In both maps highlighted by Martin the area between the Swilken Burn and the town is shown as 'Town property'. In the first map the land over the burn and alongside the sea/West Sands is shown as 'Major Camerons property' whereas in the second map it's just termed 'Links'.


Would this ownership have had any impact on the question first posed by Bill in the opening thread, to paraphrase, why wasn't golf originally played nearer the seashore dunes?


Just curious.


Atb

[Adam Lawrence]

surely a reputable journalist would trust wikipedia ? 

Niall

All sources are to be mistrusted to a degree. But the bit about its age is pretty certain I think. I haven't seen any evidence of golf in St Andrews as far back as the 1300s

[Bob Montle]

Martin: You are correct.  I meant to say "Some" of the New Course and all of the Jubilee were under water.  Blame old age and a late night!
I took a large scale copy of the 1821 chart and superimposed a recent google earth photo.  The shoreline in 1821 follows the path between the New and the Jubilee almost exactly.

What I am unsure of is the extent of the 1893 Bruce Embankment land reclamation.  Was it mainly around the first fairway?  Regardless, there was much reclamation before the 1893 embankment.  David Balfour in 1887 wrote that "there was a serious hazard made by the sea (on the last hole) which came up to the steps of the present clubhouse.... But the links have now been made much wider by the rubbish from the town having reclaimed a large portion from the sea."

Indeed, the construction of the present 1st green of TOC in 1870 was made possible by the previous reclamation efforts of Playfair and Bruce senior.

In 1894, a year after the "construction" of the embankment, the R&A was considering the construction of the New course, but was concerned because the new course would take up all the land between TOC and the sea, leaving no room for the public to exercise their rights to walking there.

Which is confusing to me, as the land for the Jubilee had to come there at sometime.

But when?

[Bryan Izatt]

I also took the 1820 map and overlaid it on the current aerial.  The blue lines represent the 1820 coast line and Swilcan burn.  The Golfers Bridge (in black) appears to be where the current Swilcan Bridge is.  The 1820 Swilcan Bridge is on what is now Old Station Road that went to Cupar back in the day.  The 1st and 18th must have been very narrow back in the 1820's assuming the West Sands were not part of the course.

[Marty Bonnar]

Bob,
Here's a link to the old photo of the embankment construction:

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/imu/imu.php?request=multimedia&irn=119553&mimeType=image&width=800&format=jpg

Yes, it WAS old fishing boats filled with rubble!

Cheers
M.

[Marty Bonnar]

And I just remembered that Outhead was the town dump mid last century. There's lots of rubble and all sorts of stuff out there.

M

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