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Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« on: October 02, 2006, 12:29:50 PM »
The interim USGA report of their extensive test program to determine the full scope of spin generation was sent out to manufacturers recently.  In his September eTECHreport, Tom Wishon has an article commenting on it.

http://www.wishongolf.com/etechreport/2006/september/

The USGA’s study is apparently comprised of five components:

    1. Field Benchmark performance testing

    2. Establishment of surrogates for grass

    3. Face treatment performance testing

    4. Study the effect of face treatment performance on shot trajectory and landing behavior

    5. Confirm laboratory testing with field testing

Components #1 and 2 are completed and #3 is presently in progress.  The scope of the study certainly suggests why the USGA apparently takes so long to reach a decision on these kind of tech matters.  It must be complicated for instance to develop a surrogate for grass.

Among the interesting findings:

"While space limitations in the E-TECHreport limits the inclusion of the vast amount of test data compiled so far by the USGA, in a nutshell, the player and lab testing have revealed that U-groove spin rates from the rough were in the area of 40% higher for the 5- and 8-iron, and approximately 25% higher for the Sand Wedge, than for the V-groove clubheads."

"The USGA reported that it was clear from the player data that the configuration of modern club faces has significant performance improvements over the traditional V-shaped groove in grassy lies. For some lofts, it was found that spin using the U-groove club in the rough was actually higher than from a clean lie."

"While the USGA still has a lot of their total test protocol yet to complete and has not predicted a date for completion or decision making, the “word on the street” from the golf industry based on the data revealed is that golfers should expect to see the USGA ban U-grooves and either go back to only V-grooves or some other groove shape that may be “in between.”"

What's interesting is, that as a manufacturer who stands to gain by selling new $1000 sets of v-grooved irons to players who's u-grooved irons have been banned, Tom is not in favour of the ban on u-grooves.  His solution to the issue is 7" rough for those weeks and those courses where the Tour plays.  A length where no gouger can get it out.  Seems a lot less intrusive than getting the golfing public to spend hundreds of millions to replace their iron sets.  Would 7" rough offend the classic architectural preservationists?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 12:45:17 PM »
Not if their perspective on the actual performance (scoring) of the PGA Tour guys were based in reality.

Interesting stuff, curious to see where it goes.

Aaron Katz

Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 01:14:02 PM »
This is idiotic.  You're talking about possibly making everybody replace their entire iron sets to conform to USGA rules?  I can't even believe that the USGA is thinking of doing such a thing.  "For the good of the game" does not equal "for the protection of par."  The USGA might risk losing tens of thousands of golfers if it declared all recent model irons non-conforming.  

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 01:17:10 PM »
Do all recent sets have U-Grooves?  When did this start approximately?   Assuming you are right Aaron, this might be one way to make a change without the risk of manufacturer litigation. ;)

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 01:26:22 PM »
The problem with 7" rough is its only 7 " where the gallery is not walking on it, so the situation becomes inequitable.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

JohnV

Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2006, 01:37:29 PM »
Before you all jump off the bridge, I'm sure the USGA will grandfather all old clubs just like they did with the Ping Eye 2s years ago so nobody will be forced to buy a new set.  

The tours will probably not grandfather them or will just assume that since the tour boys switch clubs all the time, they will disappear quickly anyway.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2006, 01:41:47 PM »
John,

Yes, it's inequitable in favour of the really wild driver.  But what's another alternative rather than outlawing u-grooves?

Aaron,

Does sound crazy doesn't it?  The rough idea sounds like a better bet.

JES,

According to the article, u-grooves have been around for 15 years and I think they are used pretty much universally.

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:U-grooves, V-grooves, and Rough
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 02:18:25 PM »
JohnV:

At the ery least, if the USGA decides to outlaw U grooves, there will be a transition period. In the past such periods have stretched up to ten years. Otherwise, they will probably do as you say.

BryanI:

U grooves have been around as long as there have been cast clubs. It's just that nobady paid any attention until the Ping lawsuit, which, of course, had nothing to do with the conformity of U grooves. (In fact, I would argue that every wooden club ever made with grooves had "U", or square, or box grooves. I've checked all my old ones, and so far I'm pretty confident that what I say is true. U grooves are the original golf club grooves!)



We should remember as we throw around unabashed speculation about the USGA study that the data being collected is only that- data. Once all the data is in the real science thakes place- determining the effects of the observed phenomena on the game. In other words, it is interesting that in certain situations spin generated from U grooves is X% higher than that generated from V grooves, but the reality is that the increase may have no effect on the game. If a the V grooves produce no spin and the U grooves generate .4 RPS, what's the dif?

There is also the fact that all players strike the ball somewhat differently, so there are infinite possibilities of the effects of different grooves given different swing speeds, angles of attack, etc.

I don't know what this all means at this time; we just need to keep our minds (and eyes and ears) open 'till we know a lot more.

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

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