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PAW13

Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« on: September 11, 2003, 08:53:29 AM »
To All GCA contributors:

As a "NEWBIE" on GCA, I have only just looked back at all the wonderful comments about Philadelphia Country from the Women's Amateur.  We at PCC are very excited about how the golf course played for the women and have always been proud of our golf course especially after our renovation.

I read with much interest about your comments about our new 17th tee.  When the renovation was done the new tee box was not done, so that we could evaluate the hole without the three pine trees guarding the right side of the hole over the cross bunkers.  I was a part of the group that put the new tee in and would like to give you the reasons why.  

The 17th at PCC has always been reguarded as our most difficult hole at 459 (previous yardage) from the back tee.  But with technology and the removal the three trees, our golf hole had become just another Driver 9-iron/PW hole for the long hitter.  In an effort to put teeth back into the hole we decided to put the tee in and we actually did cut back some trees on the right side of the footbridge.  Yes the tee shot takes you away from the green, but it does offer you three choices off the tee.  One is for the high ball hitter to take it over the trees (which can be done by a 3-wood and will most likely be done by most of the amateurs in 2005 at the US Amateur), the second option (which is my normal approach) is to hit a low cut under the overhanging tree, over the cross bunkers and have it bounce down the hill to 160 ( which by the way was how the hole played before the three trees came out) or the third option is too play safe hit it left of the trees and bunkers with a 3-wood or 1-iron and play down the hill to the green from 200 (which is where Byron holed it from in 1939).

Now with that said, there is some talk amongst our golf committee to try and build a tee behind the current tee, the only problem I see with that is you now have a tee in play from the 16th faiway that could lead to a golfer being hit and also slowing up play as players wait for each other to hit.

We also need to address the long rough on the left side of the fairway now that the right tee is in play.  If you do decide to go left of the trees and bunkers the left rough comes up very quickly and thus leaves most players with only a chip out.

So if anyone has any thoughts on this I (and our golf committee) would be interested in hearing them.  By the way if any architechts are reading this please chime in.  

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2003, 09:12:36 AM »
It seems to me that I recall mention that the right side tee box was there in the 1939 Open.

Perhaps Wayne Morrison has some input from his collection of the Wm Flynn drawings.

PAW13, I like your approach shot to GCA!

wsmorrison

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2003, 09:30:30 AM »
Chet,

Thrilled to see you on this site.  Someone with your appreciation of golf architecture, skills as a player, and experience on a variety of courses both in tournament conditions and everyday is a great asset to this asylum.

Bill,
I'll check the drawings this evening.  As I recall (memory ain't what it used to be) a back right tee box was not evidenced in the drawings.  However, a few old guard members told me it was there at one time.  I'll check some aerials that I have as well.  Chet, do you think a back right tee was present in the past?

I have a collection of about 21 golf course aerials from suburban Philadelphia taken in the late 1930s a few of which I've figured out.  These are from the National Archives (courtesy of Craig Disher).  I need some help in determining the others.  I made a copy for you and hope to get together soon so you can identify them.  I hope to show Jim Finegan these at some point as well.  Some of them are absolutely fascinating others ranging to the mundane.  Bill, I'll call you later today....welcome back.

Regards,
Wayne
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 09:31:32 AM by wsmorrison »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2003, 10:01:20 AM »
PAW13;

Unfortunately, I know that there is no room on the present 17th tee to go straight back, which leaves sort of a quandary as relates to modern distance issues.

I'll think about it more, but I will say generally that I have never seen a "good" golf hole which forces a carry over trees, or a low slice under them to make the hole a less than 90+ degree dogleg.

I know that's probably not the answer you're looking for, but I'm not sure if the assumption that it needs to play longer is necessarily valid.  After all, PCC has other defenses, which were well-evident in recent events there.

Please say hi to your brother Michael for me! :)

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2003, 10:34:13 AM »
 When i went out to the tournament i thought that tee stuck out as "non-Flynnish".So when i heard that it was not in his plans i was not surprised.As Mike Cirba says you have a difficult situation.Sometimes you cannot preserve Flynn's intent because of constraints.
    My preference is to just play the course as designed and not change the angle of play when faced with these constraints.
  At Rolling Green we have simiilar issues.I think we need to look to the landing area for alternatives THAT WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH FLYNN'S CONCEPTS,when confronted with these constraints.
  BTW i enjoy lunch at my Rotary with your dad on occasion.
AKA Mayday

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2003, 10:43:10 AM »
Wayne

I made a copy of the 17th (Flynn's 4th) which I can send to Chet if he will send me his address.

It looks like the original design had the green tucked into the corner of the boundary line and Spring Mill road, and the dogleg is not as severe.  This is just a guess, however.

The green looks elevated, too - not dug out of the hillside.  The big bunker on the right side is the only bunker at greenside.  

PAW13

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2003, 12:07:15 PM »
Bill, no need to send the picturers.

Wayne, the 17th did have a right tee box in the mid 70's that was a small circle tee that was recommended by our pro at the time Tom Wilcox.  It was an even more severe play away as there were more trees growing out of the creek of the foot bridge that made you really hit the banana slice. But with persimmon woods, you were not getting the distance so hitting through the fairway straight ahead.

Mike and Mayday, appreciate your comments, as I said we are looking for feedback positive or negative.  I do find it interesting that Tom Meeks of the USGA came out for a site visit this spring a liked the tee box as well as Jim Finegan Sr.  But I am not sure Tom played the hole from the tee and Mr. Finegan is not long enough to worry about the right side.

During the recent DeBaufre Players Trophy and Phila PGA Section Pro-AM we did hear some negatives about it.

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2003, 12:08:33 PM »
Chet:

I've thought a lot about that new tee since being over there both for the Women's US Am and the DeBaufre.

I think it's fair to say without being needlessly critical that the new tee isn't working out that well in practice or in the perception of many golfers--even good ones. The fact is it's just too far to the right for what's out there on the drive to be really effective for much other than some fairly high demand and possibly rather strange primary tee shot options. But you and the club may not feel that way.

I hear you when you state things and options such as a golfer trying or needing to hit the ball over those trees on the right with a 3 wood or alternatively trying to hit something hard and low under them down to the ideal landing area (presumably around 160). But as serious and reasonable options asking that of golfers collectively as reasonable options seems to be on the strange side to me. It’s not that I’d suggest removing those two options just enhancing the hole somehow or balancing the tee shot options somehow to create more than that---but of course not for the purpose of getting to the ideal landing area of 160yds. The purpose would be to balance things with more reasonable low risk tee shot options. The option of placing the ball to the left and on the hill is a beautiful option, a classic one and basically one that creates what used to be known as “indirect tax” situation for the approach shot despite the fact that Byron once holed a 1 iron from there to basically win the 1939 US Open!

When I say what I have about the problems and solutions on this hole  I should also stress that golf architecture and particularly what all you're trying to do with that hole falls into a lot of gray area--definitely not black and white. And furthermore, what you have on that hole, with what you're trying to do is a whole series of very closely connected and nuancy strategic problems that certainly have no obvious or easy answers or solutions, the basic reason being the topography of the hole and the fact it slopes down so much over the hill and to the right.

And so the solutions for how best to solve the problems of what you're trying to do on that hole needs to be done very diliberately and carefully basically following a very careful process. The absolute worst and wrong thing to do, at least at first, would be to remove trees on the corner FIRST, although ultimately given other connecting solutions that might end up being the thing to do. The reason I say that is simple because those trees are large and central to the way the hole is working now (although maybe not ideally with that back tee that far right) but if you removed those big trees now, particularly those two to three that are really big wood, you run the risk of gutting the hole for the next 75 years because if you cut those mothers down you wouldn't get their effect back for about that much time!

And if they were cut down the solutions of what to do to reenhance the all important corner on that hole becomes really complicated in a design workup sense. One could put bunkers further along the corner over the hill but they'd be going far down the hill and probably necessarily to the left somewhat even into what might be far right-side fairway at present to recreate the same basic tee shot demand as those trees do now. And furthermore blind bunkering that is central to a primary strategy is considered far less than ideal--at least in architectural principle.

I realize that I may not even be catching your drift on this hole and what you and the club thinks needs to be done with it. If you’re suggesting that the way it is even with the new tee to the right is still too easy to suit the club, I must say I don’t know that I’d agree with that. My take on the hole with the new tee is that two primary options to get the tee shot to the ideal landing area are just a bit too high risk or even weird for an otherwise great hole like that, but you certainly know the way the hole plays and plays now 1000 times better than I do. But if that’s what you’re saying that the hole still plays too easy even with the new tee, then perhaps you may want to consider planting a tree or two back up on the hill at the perfect apex to intensify that low cut shot down to the ideal landing area of 160.

But if it’s not concern with the hole being too easy but concern about that new tee creating unnecessarily odd primary tee shot options then my advice would be to think seriously about expanding that fairway out to the left, maybe even big-time to the left and down the hole. What that would accomplish would be to give the long ball hitter who choose not to or didn’t cut the ball enough to the ideal landing area a safer out on his tee shot—safer meaning his next shot could be more than a chip out. I assume you’re suggesting that hitting that shot out into what’s now heavy rough isn’t cutting it or is really unpopular.

(continued on the next post)

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2003, 12:10:22 PM »
I should also interject at this point that you and the club should NOT get too concerned about the hole being too easy to get the tee shot to the ideal landing areas simply because it happens sometimes. That’s something you should probably try to track statistically at least for a time. On tee shot options such as those the more complete and valuable analysis needs to be what happens if a good golfer doesn’t get to the ideal landing area because he goes not left but too far right—and that obviously means hitting the ball around the corner and too far right or catching the top of those trees trying to go over them. I’d have to assume that the possibility of that happening is great enough to make those two primary options of hitting a tee shot over the trees or cutting it low and under them as considerably more than just “too easy”, particularly as that could very easily create a lost ball and stroke and distance (something even the long hitting qualifiers for the US Am might think twice of thrice about).

So if the two primary aggressive tee shot options are too strange or whatever you should consider giving the tee shot long and left less risk by removing at least the high rough over there and possibly putting that enitre area into fairway but to compensate for that by creating more intensity from that approach position down at the green end!! How to do that? I’d have to look closely at that area and it’s relationship to the green's angle etc but if a golfer is enough out of angle with everything that’s going on at the green-end then that might work well enough as is. But if that far left and long area is not enough out of angle a possible solution to intensify that approach shot would be to take that left green-side bunker below the rock and simply expand it in enough into the approach and close enough to the left side of the green to create whatever intensity you want to for approaches from the left side of the fairway.

Frankly if you just did that enough or well enough that alone might just take care of the entire problem on this hole and make even the additional length of today less of a problem for that hole.

There’s hardly anything better in design than when the entire strategy of a hole from tee to green centers highly strategically around one single architectural feature, and better yet if it’s at the green-end. And that green side bunker below the rock brought into the approach and closer to the green’s left side just might be such a potential area and feature. Not to mention the fact that trying to position your tee shot best to deal with that enhanced bunker for either the ground game approach or an aerial approach, particularly from the far left side brings into the equation that really neat rightside slope on the green surface itself and all that can do—not to mention the fact that it would intensify the possibility of going right of the green!

Sorry for the verbosity but that’s my style—I can’t help it.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 12:50:24 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2003, 12:34:53 PM »
Chet:

Lastly, I agree, I really think you're going to create additional problems not only on #17 but also on #16 if you try to do any more with tee length addition on #17. I hate to see solutions on one hole start to lap into creating problems on other holes anyway but if you went back farther on #17 tee you might have to plant trees or something to protect it on the right of #16--not a good thing.

PAW13

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2003, 09:24:24 PM »
Tom, appreciate your verbosity, not a problem.

I am not saying the new tee is too easy, it is very difficult to hit it that high or that low.

Your comments about the left side are things we have discussed as well as bringing the left green side bunker out closer to the green entrance.

Actually Mike McNulty wants to take the bunker back to its shape before the renovation which had a big high face on the left side.  During the renovation he discovered the rock under the sand and decided to expose it and reduce the size of the bunker.  He is thinking about blasting through the rock and bring the old shape back.

Our main goal at PCC is to offer a fair test of golf and after the first three months of the new tee, what we are hearing is maybe it is not fair.  Personally I don't mind the tee, but I am sure that is because I can hit either shot off the tee, just happen to be more comfortable at the moment hitting the low one.  By the way it does not neccesary need to be a low slice because if you get the ball on top of hill it will roll down on its own into the 160-180 area.

Shu is a big fan of the going straight back tee and I agree we should not interfere with the 16th.

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2003, 09:58:46 AM »
With the tree removal program is there any room for a tee box near the pump house?  This would be behind 16 green and well left of the 11th.

PAW13

Re:Philadelphia Country #17 New Tee Box
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2003, 11:56:35 AM »
Mr. Dow, going back to the pump house would not add the length that we would need and it would only improve the angle of the hole, if we went behing the pump house it would put the tee in landing area of hooked tee shots off of # 11.

Redanman, thanks for your thoughts, will update everyone if we come up with other ideas.

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