[Gary Gruber]

I live locally and I have walked the site numerous times over the last 15 years. The lower sections undoubtedly provide some challenges, but the property as a whole provides exceptional opportunities for a great Links course.

[Frank Pont]

Amazing you can get planning permission for such a property in Scotland. In the rest of the EU you would be in trouble even talking about golf on such a site. Great news if this would make golf possible in other EU dunes areas......

[Niall C]

Amazing you can get planning permission for such a property in Scotland. In the rest of the EU you would be in trouble even talking about golf on such a site. Great news if this would make golf possible in other EU dunes areas......

Frank


He ain't got it yet !


Niall

[Niall C]

Keisers own hamfisted way of dealing with the local authorities on his proposed course along the coast from Bandon that was mentioned in another thread.

Niall

Keiser has been nothing but patient and generous with Oregon and it's local authorities....just a classic F up by the government in OR

William


You are no doubt right, and that the reports I read about Keiser entering into an environmentally sensitive site, laying down tracks, ripping out vegetation etc in order to undertake an SI, all without the appropriate permissions, were clearly wrong. I apologise for taking those reports at face value and not running them by you first.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

Assuming there is 185 hectares, that's 450 acres easily enough for 36 holes, perhaps even 54. Maybe 18 day 1, with a routing left for more.

[William_G]

Keisers own hamfisted way of dealing with the local authorities on his proposed course along the coast from Bandon that was mentioned in another thread.

Niall

Keiser has been nothing but patient and generous with Oregon and it's local authorities....just a classic F up by the government in OR

William


You are no doubt right, and that the reports I read about Keiser entering into an environmentally sensitive site, laying down tracks, ripping out vegetation etc in order to undertake an SI, all without the appropriate permissions, were clearly wrong. I apologise for taking those reports at face value and not running them by you first.


Niall

Niall

Your ability to read a report has no bearing on what happened at the site, but thanks for piling on as you can certainly follow the wrong information put out by those who want to kill a project.

Ticky tack...at best.

Get on a plane and visit sometime.

Thanks

[Niall C]

William


So the basic story that Keiser sent on a team to do SI's without the required permits had no basis, and that on going on site the SI crew put down tracks and ripped out vegetation to get access ?


A yes or no answer will do.


Thanks


Niall

[David_Tepper]

"Amazing you can get planning permission for such a property in Scotland. In the rest of the EU you would be in trouble even talking about golf on such a site. Great news if this would make golf possible in other EU dunes areas......"

Frank P. -

Are you sure Scotland and the rest of the UK is obliged to follow EU policy on coastal development in dunes areas? I could be mistaken, but I don't think that is the case.

DT

[Niall C]

David


I suspect that Frank was talking of the relative difficulty of getting permission in the EU in general rather than a reference to blanket legislation. Each country will be subject to it's own laws and regs.


Niall

[James Boon]

I don't think there is a GCAer amongst us who has ever seen the dunes north of Embo and not wondered about what a great course you could have out there. I've even looked across to them from Little Ferry and thought the same thing (my wife often sees me looking out on these areas and know recognises the signs of a day dreaming wanna be golf architect, and just walks away! 

Thanks to the wonders of Google Streetview you can get out to the tip of the land there (trying a link!) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.9311732,-4.0178362,3a,75y,344.08h,83.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slhoG3YnRDbuASPZh5KMbXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Most of my golf books are currently packed away, but I have a faint recollection of a book having a picture of these dunes and wondering about what might be? Or am I cracking up?

Cheers,

James

[Ian Mackenzie]

Most of my golf books are currently packed away, but I have a faint recollection of a book having a picture of these dunes and wondering about what might be? Or am I cracking up?

Lorne Rubenstein pondered the same thing in 2001 in his book, "A Season in Dornoch".

[Eric Smith]

I don't think there is a GCAer amongst us who has ever seen the dunes north of Embo and not wondered about what a great course you could have out there. I've even looked across to them from Little Ferry and thought the same thing (my wife often sees me looking out on these areas and know recognises the signs of a day dreaming wanna be golf architect, and just walks away! 

Thanks to the wonders of Google Streetview you can get out to the tip of the land there (trying a link!) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.9311732,-4.0178362,3a,75y,344.08h,83.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slhoG3YnRDbuASPZh5KMbXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Wow. Thanks for posting the link, Boony. What a beautiful spot. I'm finally making the trek up to Dornoch next summer and hope to wander this way while there.

[Rich Goodale]

I live locally and I have walked the site numerous times over the last 15 years. The lower sections undoubtedly provide some challenges, but the property as a whole provides exceptional opportunities for a great Links course.

Great to hear from you, Gary, as you probably know more about the site as anybody on this forum.  I've never walked it, but I was informed of its possibilities 30+ years ago from Euan Currie, whom I know that you know.  Given the quality of the developer and architects involved, this new course will be massively important to the future of Dornoch and the rest of East Sutherland.

Richard

PS--great opening thread, Ru
PPS--it's cool that Ben Crenshaw will be involved, as his visit to Dornoch in the late 70's  (due to reading HW Wind's essay) led to Tom Watson's visit there in 1981 which led to RDGC's resurgence as a golf venue.
PPPS--Now if somebody would buy Grannie's Heilan Hame (the caravan park that will abut the new course) and build a world class destination resort, and.or somebody does the same thing with the once great Dornoch Hotel, the place could become Nirvana.....

rfg

[Jon Wiggett]

PPPS--Now if somebody would buy Grannie's Heilan Hame (the caravan park that will abut the new course) and build a world class destination resort, and.or somebody does the same thing with the once great Dornoch Hotel, the place could become Nirvana.....

rfg

But without a caravan park next to it no longer a links. Clearly you have no understanding of what is required for a course to be a genuine links Rihc 

Jon

[Frank Pont]

"Amazing you can get planning permission for such a property in Scotland. In the rest of the EU you would be in trouble even talking about golf on such a site. Great news if this would make golf possible in other EU dunes areas......"

Frank P. -

Are you sure Scotland and the rest of the UK is obliged to follow EU policy on coastal development in dunes areas? I could be mistaken, but I don't think that is the case.

DT

In principle yes, European ecological law takes precedent over Dutch laws, and the same should be the case in UK. Only bailout might be overarching domestic needs (employment, energy, roads etc).

[Jon Wiggett]

Frank,

what is the relevant European ecological law in this case? Just because it restricts the use of links land in the Netherlands does not mean this is the case in the north of Scotland. The land at Embo is not unusual or sensitive from an environmental point of view hence not protected.

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

PPPS--Now if somebody would buy Grannie's Heilan Hame (the caravan park that will abut the new course) and build a world class destination resort, and.or somebody does the same thing with the once great Dornoch Hotel, the place could become Nirvana.....

rfg

But without a caravan park next to it no longer a links. Clearly you have no understanding of what is required for a course to be a genuine links Rihc 

Jon

Nae problemo, Jon.  Just keep a few caravans at Grannies or stick a few out towards the entrance to Loch Fleet as an homage to all the great older scottish links courses.

Rich

[Paul Gray]

Amazing you can get planning permission for such a property in Scotland. In the rest of the EU you would be in trouble even talking about golf on such a site. Great news if this would make golf possible in other EU dunes areas......

Let's hope so. It would be nice if someone could do something post Trump to paint a positive picture of golf in sensitive environment. Many courses of course have a positive and proactive approach to saving our environment but that gets lost beneath the headlines.

Note: If Keiser does get permission it'll be portrayed as a very British pro business move. If he doesn't, regardless of the facts, Europe will be blamed. Right now, Europe is the scapegoat for just about anything which doesn't go as planned.

[Andrew Simpson]

Amazing you can get planning permission for such a property in Scotland. In the rest of the EU you would be in trouble even talking about golf on such a site. Great news if this would make golf possible in other EU dunes areas......

Let's hope so. It would be nice if someone could do something post Trump to paint a positive picture of golf in sensitive environment. Many courses of course have a positive and proactive approach to saving our environment but that gets lost beneath the headlines.

Note: If Keiser does get permission it'll be portrayed as a very British pro business move. If he doesn't, regardless of the facts, Europe will be blamed. Right now, Europe is the scapegoat for just about anything which doesn't go as planned.

Good post.
Looking at the content I don't see any point getting carried away with EEC regs on building a coastal course in Scotland when Trumph has just built his course. Something more sympathetic and without getting the locals backs up should sail through, specially in a very pro golf/tourist friendly area.

[Frank Pont]

Frank,

what is the relevant European ecological law in this case? Just because it restricts the use of links land in the Netherlands does not mean this is the case in the north of Scotland. The land at Embo is not unusual or sensitive from an environmental point of view hence not protected.

Jon

Jon,

sorry I thought it was dunes land, and all dunes land in the EU is protected, no matter where it is in the EU.

Only bailout is matters of national importance, which is probably what was used in the case of Trump and Mach Dunes.

FP

[Ben Stephens]

James,

I remember Robin putting a photo up on GCA of Embo

No you are not cracking up!! Its the distraction of building your house

Cheers
Ben

I don't think there is a GCAer amongst us who has ever seen the dunes north of Embo and not wondered about what a great course you could have out there. I've even looked across to them from Little Ferry and thought the same thing (my wife often sees me looking out on these areas and know recognises the signs of a day dreaming wanna be golf architect, and just walks away! 

Thanks to the wonders of Google Streetview you can get out to the tip of the land there (trying a link!) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.9311732,-4.0178362,3a,75y,344.08h,83.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slhoG3YnRDbuASPZh5KMbXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Most of my golf books are currently packed away, but I have a faint recollection of a book having a picture of these dunes and wondering about what might be? Or am I cracking up?

Cheers,

James

[Jon Wiggett]

Frank,

what is the relevant European ecological law in this case? Just because it restricts the use of links land in the Netherlands does not mean this is the case in the north of Scotland. The land at Embo is not unusual or sensitive from an environmental point of view hence not protected.

Jon

Jon,

sorry I thought it was dunes land, and all dunes land in the EU is protected, no matter where it is in the EU.

Only bailout is matters of national importance, which is probably what was used in the case of Trump and Mach Dunes.

FP

All dune land, really? Are you not conflating different laws? I have never seen any directive stating all dune land was protected.  Which piece of EU legislation is this contained in? As far as I am aware it is left to individual members to decide what is protected. Certainly, in 2009 it was not the case.

Both Mac Dunes and Trump were in designated SSSI's and even here it is under a local level planning decision not national. Is not the case that all dune land has been designated SSSI in the Netherlands?

Jon

[Niall C]

PPPS--Now if somebody would buy Grannie's Heilan Hame (the caravan park that will abut the new course) and build a world class destination resort, and.or somebody does the same thing with the once great Dornoch Hotel, the place could become Nirvana.....

rfg

Rich

Picture the scene in 10 years time. Two old duffers are looking out the window of the upstairs bar in the new Norman Forster designed clubhouse, watching tartan clad bell boys taking bags of clubs from the boot of the Perry Golf bus, while white boiler suited caddies stand beside the first tee waiting for their employers hit their tee shots in their freshly acquired “Dornoch Dunes 1615” logo’d golf wear.

One old duffer turns to the other and says “D’ye mind when this used to be a golf club ?”. To which the second old duffer replies “Say buddy, that sure is a wonderful accent. Where you from ?” Unfortunately the first old duffer can’t hear what was said due to it being drowned out by the lone piper (clad in Dornoch Dunes tartan, naturally) piping players onto the 18^th green.

Be careful what you wish for, that’s all I’m saying !
Niall

[Robin_Hiseman]

I walked that ground with Dornoch head greenkeeper Bob Mackay more than 15 year ago. It is wonderful.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Frank,

what is the relevant European ecological law in this case? Just because it restricts the use of links land in the Netherlands does not mean this is the case in the north of Scotland. The land at Embo is not unusual or sensitive from an environmental point of view hence not protected.

Jon

Jon,

sorry I thought it was dunes land, and all dunes land in the EU is protected, no matter where it is in the EU.

Only bailout is matters of national importance, which is probably what was used in the case of Trump and Mach Dunes.

FP

All dune land, really? Are you not conflating different laws? I have never seen any directive stating all dune land was protected.  Which piece of EU legislation is this contained in? As far as I am aware it is left to individual members to decide what is protected. Certainly, in 2009 it was not the case.

Both Mac Dunes and Trump were in designated SSSI's and even here it is under a local level planning decision not national. Is not the case that all dune land has been designated SSSI in the Netherlands?

Jon

Frank, Jon,
 
The difference is that SSSI is a British designation, not a European one. The relatively new EU designations of SAC's and SPA's (under the Natura 2000 directive) are the designations used widely throughout the European continent. An SAC - in general - holds a higher protection than an SSSI and a large amount of duneland is classified as such.
 
Britain, being part of the EU, are supposed to use the SAC / SPA designations as well, but being Britain and contrary, they are not very good at it, to the extent that the EU have in the past threatened to take legal action.
 
Bottom line is, Britain has far less SAC's (whether already SSSI's or not) and this makes it a little more likely to get permitting approval on dune land than it might on the continent where all this land is wrapped up.
 
Ally

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()