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Mike_Cirba

Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« on: September 19, 2003, 12:01:12 AM »
Ok...I've heard enough glowing superlatives from those whose opinions I respect.

I also have looked the the amazing pictures of FH on this site so many times that I tire of looking for faults.  The pictures stir the senses and emotions like nothing I've seen since the early pics of Pine Valley and Cypress Point from Geoff Shack's books.

Hell, the first time I went through the descriptions and pictures provided by Ran, I admit that I was emotionally moved to tears...call me a sentimentalist but great art should have that effect.

So, for those of you who have played there....let's hear it.

How does Friar's Head stack up against the greatest courses in the world?

If you were sentenced to play only five courses for the rest of your life, would Friars Head be among them??

I'm not one to judge a course by pictures, but....It sure as Hell looks like it should be.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 08:59:22 AM by Mike_Cirba »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2003, 03:44:26 AM »
Mike,
Heave....I mean Friars Head is Fuggingunbelievable.

How do I rank it amongst the GREATS.......(Shut up Brad and Slapper!:)) I'll go ahead and say it, I LOVE it as every bit as much I love Pine Valley. You'll have to decide for yourself if I love it just a little less or a little more.

But we all know it is complete B.S. to say that one is better then the other, especially since Friars Head really is still growing up. But my how quick!
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2003, 06:45:40 AM »
Tommy,
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....the sounds of trying to keep quiet! I'll leave it at advantage Naccarato! ;D

Mike,

  My take....in its present form, it well deserves top 15 in the world. After its grow in finishes: top ten easily! I likely would have it in my top five (displacing Sand Hills as it is an easier walk). Pine Valley isn't in any immediate danger, but FH clearly represents the single greatest contemporary golf architectural accomplishment and sets the standard for the 21st. Century. As for Tommy's take......grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2003, 07:29:20 AM »
Res ipsa loquitor...it speaks for itself. Pure joy. Here are a few thoughts and words I uttered to my group and caddy.

Looks like Cypress...o my god...that hole looks like one of those fantasy holes they draw in calendars...10 way better than Royal County Down...14 I think with the stairs in the background, one of the 18 best holes I've ever played...15th tee, you got to be kidding me...caddy says, it just gets better...16,17,18, I don't want this day to end,18 look at the scale of those bunkers, massive



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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2003, 09:52:17 AM »
The excitement over Friar's Head is palpable.  This alone is cause to rejoice that such masterpieces can still be built today.  Like Mike (no, not that one) I drool over the pictures and highly respect those who are issuing glowing reports and favorable opinions.  

Will it indeed be timeless?  Billy Mayfair is not "the next Nicklaus," Larry Hinson was not the next young lion, and all of a sudden, I'm not so sure Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer of all time.  (JONES IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE!).  

For those of you in the know, will it hold up?  Why?  I hope so, and I hope to see it one day.

Regards,

Mike


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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

GeoffreyC

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2003, 10:03:52 AM »
Mike Hendron

Friar's Head will stand the test of time.  There are many reasons for this but one of them is flexibility.  It has the greatest set of greensites built since Prairie Dunes. Take the opening hole.  Place the flag in the center of the green and you have a nice challenging opener with interesting putts from any angle.  Put the flag in the front left and you have terror from the start. Short = dead, left = deader  :), middle of the green and a very challenging two putt. THe analogy with the opener at Pine Valley is striking in that sense.  At PV with a front or middle pin you have challenge but put it back in the neck at the back of the green near the dropoffs and the intensity factor goes up dramatically (unless you're Cirba and you drain a 70 footer  :) ).

That theme goes on and on at FH.  Its not just the beauty of the place.  There is abundant strategy and choices everywhere you look.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 10:06:20 AM by Geoffrey Childs »
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Mike_Sweeney

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2003, 10:07:02 AM »
Mike,

I want to start out by saying that I picked Bill Coore over MacK and CB Mac in Gib's "if you could only play one architect", and I recently put FH in Maidstone territory, and I don't share Matt Ward's view on Maidstone  >:(!! However, I think Zenith is a little strong for any course. I also feel that C&C have the potential to do more, if they are willing to get on planes to get the right sites, probably overseas and hopefully Bandon. I have already heard good stuff about Old Sandwich in MA.

Zenith implies a course that would satisfy this prickly group, the USGA AND The PGA Tour players. Shinnecock would probably come closest to that, and FH TODAY would not satisfy the later two. Before people jump on me, they are still putting in some new tees when we were there, the grow in is still very early, and yes I KNOW the course was not set up to have a tour event !! The unofficial course record was surprising (I am not posting it because it is irrelevant at this early stage) when Jim Kidd told me.

Zenith implies that it can't get any better, and I think that the combination of argicultural technology (grasses, earth moving, sprinkler systems), talented architects, visionary developers like Ken and his team and a few more great sites will yield even better courses for us to discuss and play. However, the playing technology needs to be checked, in order for us to compare the old and the new.

PS. I also owned some stocks in 1999 that I thought would go to $50 so what the hell do I know.  :P
« Last Edit: September 19, 2003, 10:10:00 AM by Mike_Sweeney »
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Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2003, 12:00:58 PM »
If I were sentenced to play only 5 courses for the rest of my life, Friars Head would definitely be one of them. I can't wait to see how the course is rated by the major publications. As for standing the test of time, I thought the course felt as if it had been there for a hundred years already so I say it has already stood the test of time.
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Mr Hurricane

oncegood

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2003, 04:13:18 PM »
I have played a lot of the best ranked golf courses and FH rates right up there with the best of them.  The layout is tremendous and to score well it requires every shot in your bag and a ton of thought in every shot.  I can't wait until there is a tour event there and they make it tournament conditions.  GOOD LUCK.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2003, 07:34:56 PM »
slapper, et. al.,

How do you compare it to Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes ?
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mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2003, 08:49:29 PM »
Mike,

I have  only walked the course, but  I studied  it for six hours on a crystal clear November day.   Friars Head would easily make my top  five, behind only

National Golf Links, Sand Hills, and Royal Dornoch.


14-18  is probably the finest closing strech I have ever seen

and I absolutely love  the tiny 17th over  a valley.

its admirable what excellent holes  C&C    crafted   from the

flatter part of the property, especially 5,12, and 13.


I echo  Geoffreys sentiments   about the gorgeous greens.


Friars Head  is challenging,sporty, and strategic......

Bring extra Kleenex when you play,   because  this work af art

is poetic, if not spiritual.


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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2003, 09:18:39 PM »
Mark,

Diversity of opinion is interesting.
I thought # 17 was the weakest hole on the golf course.
I guess that's what makes horse races.

I loved the flat holes and the transition holes.

To All,

What course that was previously in your top 5 are you throwing out ?
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Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2003, 09:46:39 PM »
I'm just amazed at what incredible quality of golf is all within a 20 minute drive of my home.

And more to come with the outstanding property at BayberryLand next to NGLA if the right architect is selected.

Simply amazing.

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"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2003, 06:38:41 AM »
Pat

I agree. The 17th is the weakest hole. I think they need to move the tee back 30 yards.
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2003, 07:29:13 AM »
Quassi,

I would disagree with moving the tee back.

It's not that # 17 isn't a good hole, but in comparison to the others it seems to be in their shadows.

Even NGLA and Shinnecock have a weakest hole.

Before the cognoscente get in a lather, remember, that when the top students in the country, the best in their class,  get into Harvard, academically, 50 % of them will find themselves in the bottom half of the class.
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2003, 08:25:58 AM »
Pat,
 
   You've finally asked me a good question. I too have thought about just how FH compares to the BD/PD complex and have reached the following conclusions:

FH seems to me (IMO) to have a very favorable and similar style to the both BD and PD. The natural sandy waste areas of PD are almost doppleganged at FH. At FH, they are evident everywhere and not just close to the bluff's(or water's) edge. The routing of PD is deliberate in its juxtapostion to the water and its wind exposures. FH is not, but retains similar characteristics on holes 15-18. The rolling slightly inland holes of BD are quite similar to those "field" holes at FH save for the fact that FH contains significantly greater elevation variety than BD.

Bandon and Pacific are links style seaside courses that use their wind exposure's to temper scoring and add variety. FH is better cited as a slightly more inland course with a little more consistent and directional wind influence. The North Fork of LI has prevailing winds that are seaonally stronger in fall and spring. The elevation of the course and its beech wood protection from the sound limit some of the wind some of the time. There are few such limiters at PD and slightly more at BD. Thus, the seaside exposure is a greater component in Oregon.

Without getting into every nuance, I find all three courses IMMENSELY PLAYABLE and in my top twenty fun tour rota. I like FH a bit better as the terrain seems to move with more  fluidity and the greens are considerably more diverse and wilder. I also must admit that the pleasure of the experience of having a FH  reasonably close by is intoxicating: I'd like to go right now!

Gotta go practice...more later ;D
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

TEPaul

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2003, 09:27:06 AM »
I don't know about Friar's Head in a comparison with the greatest courses in the world--only because I'm not really into that kind of comparative thing but I'd say what Coore & Crenshaw did on that particular site is just incredible!
That to me is where an analysis of both Friar's Head AND Coore & Crenshaw should both begin and end!

There were actually two routings done on Friar's Head (one by another architect) and it'd be very interesting to hear from Ken Bakst on that--although I can understand if he's hesitant to get into that.

A comparison of what might have been with another architect (even within a routing context) would be interesting and could say alot about much of what Coore & Crenshaw are about. To the first architect apparently anything was possible on that site but to Coore & Crenshaw it may not be well known that Coore may have come within a gnat's whisker of saying "No can do"!

Why? In my opinion, that alone is alot of what Coore & Crenshaw are about when it comes to how they treat land and sites! I walked that site with Coore one time before construction and even before that he whipped out photos of the raw site and actually ASKED ME if I thought they could use this and that somehow for golf without taking it apart or down. There was one feature he was really concerned about and wondering whether it could be utilized. I'll give everyone just one guess what that was!

I do not know what the evolutionary vegetative expectation is on that overall site but it'd be my hope that it continues into the future to have that rough, raw sandy waste look (and the expanse of it) to what's off the playing areas that it does now. I think Ken Bakst is far more into that and the details of it than most know.
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2003, 12:38:40 PM »
I think you guys are about 180 degrees off about the 17th.

I think FH 17 fits perfectly in the round for match play allowing one to score, as well as that green will kill you if its gets the chance. Miss it slightly right, and your DEAD.

Also, I think your guys might be missing a big part of the balance of where it fits into the round. Scoring holes on the back nine work at Augusta National don't they? (or at least they once did!  :'() Does every hole have to measure to a standard of strength and power to impress? What aout the 17th at Augusta National? It too is a birdie hole, or a bogie hole. Truth is that its a par 2 1/2, and it's can be a hard par, easy birdie, which equates to me to work good for match play.

What would you call the 14th at Riviera, a prime example of a golf hole that seems to be nothing from the tee to get on the green, until your on the green, and its ready to fight? In fact, I think it's the "scrapper"  (an Irish term for ready to fight and take on anything and will not give-in no matter how big the battle) of greens at Riviera, just like the 17th at Friars Head, it too is the "scrapper" of greens, ready to challenge.  

Personally, I think you guys are all so tied up with strength in numbers, and I have to ask, have you played this hole in a match of any form? Please don't tell me that you were thinking of it from a match play perspective also, because if you did, then no hole would ever be considered weak.

Or have you all been reading Matt Ward a little too much lately?   ;D
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Jim_Michaels

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2003, 02:25:04 PM »
I have played Friar's a few times. I was grateful for the respite that 17 provided before 18. But whoever thinks this is an easy hole played it with no wind and happened to put their shot on the green and below the hole. Despite its relatively short distance, this is a hole that can bite you from off the green or above the hole and  the subtleties of the putting service are actually quite surprising. On a course with so many world class holes, 17 might suffer a bit by comparison, but golf courses have to have ebb and flow. 17 fits in very well.
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is Friar's Head the Zenith of golf course design?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2003, 04:07:41 PM »
Redanman,
Hate to sound like Huckaby here, always agreeing but
once again, well put!

I should have thought better in my description of #16 at Disgusta. I still think the old was probably a hole that was much more in tune with the nature of the site--and it shows you what type of snake oil RTJ (Trent, not Tyre!) was selling when he proposed it. So I ask you, Can we call it a "dumb blond" of a golf hole? (As in Suzanne Sommers, because you know without that bleach bottle, she's a brunette! Loni Anderson too! They're no Catherine Deneuve!) :)

Jim Michaels,
Thanks for reminding all about the PREVAILING wind at #17. While I have played the hole several times myself, mostly with a soft wonderful breeze, it was far from it's potential. I hope I have a hurricane there next time!
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