St Leon Rot: Not a single thread?

[Marty Bonnar]

I'm loving how we s-t-i-l-l couldn't bring ourselves to keeping this thread architectural.
I'm kinda hoping we start discussing the team uniforms next...
Love,
F.

[Jim Hoak]

Martin, you asked why there has been no discussion of the course where the Solheim Cup was played--I think that question is being answered here.  There have no threads because no one cares enough to write about it--especially when it appears this team event like most others is played on a second-rate course for money reasons alone.  You asked if it was because people cared more about majors--for me, a resounding yes.  Of course!

[David_Tepper]

Jim & Martin -

While I would agree that the St. Leon Rot course was not especially notable in any way, I would disagree with the notion that Ryder/Solheim Cup competitions do not provide compelling and at times thrilling viewing, regardless of the quality of the golf course.

I heard Sandy Jones, now executive director of the British PGA, speak last month about the history of the Ryder Cup and his experiences as an insider to that competition over the past 30+ years. Anyone who does not think the overwhelming majority of players in these events are not highly motivated to perform their very best is mistaken.

DT

[Chris DeNigris]

I'll keep this thread alive if for no other reason than to 2nd Bogey's acknowledgement of Gerina Pillar's astounding par (and Cup) save putt. I'm pretty sure every member of the last dozen US men's Ryder Cup teams would have slid that one by. 

Sure the majors are great, but there's 4 of them every year. Some of us (many, actually) are fond of team sports/events.

[James Boon]

Martin,


I too wondered why there wasn't at least a thread or more interest, but then I struggled to find any decent information on the course.


Looking at aerials and the position of the clubhouse, was the 18 they used one that is used everyday or did they make the 18th the 17th for the Solheim Cup and so on, perhaps as there was more room around the 1st for grandstands etc so turned that into the 18th???


Other than wondering about that, I couldn't think of much else to say about the course...


Soooo... from what I saw of THAT incident Hull walked away after Lee rolled her putt just past the hole. I'm not sure whether Pettersen walked away as she was out of shot? I would say that Hull was the junior partner with Pettersen the senior, there is therefore a good chance based on my experience of more serious county matchplay type stuff that Pettersen would have taken more responsibility for putts that come under the "one of those" category. That being the case perhaps Hull thought it was likely to be seen as good enough and thus walked away? Perhaps this itself was enough to convince Lee it had been given?


I know if I think I've heard a concession but cant be sure, I ask for confirmation. Just picking it up quick is in this case literally a rookie mistake. Hull walking away and Lee picking up are both the wrong thing to do, but understandable from younger members of the team.


At first I will admit I thought the reaction to Pettersen was overblown a bit. My mind turned to several incidents in cricket when after silly or unfortunate incidents an appeal in the heat of the moment has lead to a batmsan being given out when later usually the captain says he wishes he had withdrawn his appeal. But then I thought golf is much slower than that. I didnt see how the 18th played out but there must have been plenty of opportunity to concede the hole somehow to make the match a half? Thankfully she did eventually apologies but the cup was lost by then...


Lastly, Pillar's putt on 18 was awesome under that pressure! It will be a shame the event can't be remembered more for that, rather than the concession issue. Maybe next time its in Europe we can get excited about an interesting course but I'm not holding my breath...


Cheers,


James

[jeffwarne]

Soooo... from what I saw of THAT incident Hull walked away after Lee rolled her putt just past the hole. I'm not sure whether Pettersen walked away as she was out of shot? I would say that Hull was the junior partner with Pettersen the senior, there is therefore a good chance based on my experience of more serious county matchplay type stuff that Pettersen would have taken more responsibility for putts that come under the "one of those" category. That being the case perhaps Hull thought it was likely to be seen as good enough and thus walked away? Perhaps this itself was enough to convince Lee it had been given?


I know if I think I've heard a concession but cant be sure, I ask for confirmation. Just picking it up quick is in this case literally a rookie mistake. Hull walking away and Lee picking up are both the wrong thing to do, but understandable from younger members of the team.


At first I will admit I thought the reaction to Pettersen was overblown a bit. My mind turned to several incidents in cricket when after silly or unfortunate incidents an appeal in the heat of the moment has lead to a batmsan being given out when later usually the captain says he wishes he had withdrawn his appeal. But then I thought golf is much slower than that. I didnt see how the 18th played out but there must have been plenty of opportunity to concede the hole somehow to make the match a half? Thankfully she did eventually apologies but the cup was lost by then...

I'm not really a fan of gimmes-for just this reason.
I always say when they start conceding me 270 yards drives in the fairway, I'll start conceding 18 inchers to poor putters, but.....


It would seem to me that once Hull and caddies walked away, it was the same as a concession.
To be fair to Pettersen, she had not conceded the putt, nor was she obligated to.
But once Hull walked, Pettersen should have taken the high road and said the putt was conceded
(whether she originally meant to or not).
To walk away and not have given the putt is simply rude, and I don't think Hull was being rude.
She just assumed it was a gimme as did Lee.


It seems Pettersen has suffered enough and has done the right thing.


I think blaming the Euro loss on Pettersen is a bit of a stretch.
If it simply came down to motivation the American men would actually be able to win a Ryder Cup

[Michael Whitaker]

Boony - they started on #2 and finished on #1... that's why the clubhouse positioning seemed odd.

[Michael Whitaker]

Guys like Seve, Lannie Wadkins and Ian Poulter certainly have had a lot invested in their Ryder Cup careers.

Don't forget Monty! Without the Ryder Cup he would not be in the Hall of Fame.

[Jon Wiggett]

The course itself looked to be the usual mundane, computer designed effort found so often in Europe. Too much landscaping and too little golfing interest.

I would assume that ALL 18" putts in future SC will be automatically conceded. I think the incident in general reflected badly on both teams equally. Lee should have known the rules better before hand and Pettersen should have warned her prior to the ball being lifted that it had not been given.

Jon

[James Boon]

Boony - they started on #2 and finished on #1... that's why the clubhouse positioning seemed odd.

Thanks Mike, I thought so.
Cheers,
James

[James Boon]

It would seem to me that once Hull and caddies walked away, it was the same as a concession.
To be fair to Pettersen, she had not conceded the putt, nor was she obligated to.
But once Hull walked, Pettersen should have taken the high road and said the putt was conceded
(whether she originally meant to or not).
To walk away and not have given the putt is simply rude, and I don't think Hull was being rude.
She just assumed it was a gimme as did Lee.

It seems Pettersen has suffered enough and has done the right thing.

I think blaming the Euro loss on Pettersen is a bit of a stretch.
If it simply came down to motivation the American men would actually be able to win a Ryder Cup

Jeff,

I agree, the easiest thing for Pettersen would have just been to say yes it was a concession and battle it out up the last, but she has done the right thing now so lets move on.

On a wider note, how long before we have putters being put down to show a putt is "inside the leather" at a RC or SC? 

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

It would seem to me that once Hull and caddies walked away, it was the same as a concession.
To be fair to Pettersen, she had not conceded the putt, nor was she obligated to.
But once Hull walked, Pettersen should have taken the high road and said the putt was conceded
(whether she originally meant to or not).
To walk away and not have given the putt is simply rude, and I don't think Hull was being rude.
She just assumed it was a gimme as did Lee.

It seems Pettersen has suffered enough and has done the right thing.

I think blaming the Euro loss on Pettersen is a bit of a stretch.
If it simply came down to motivation the American men would actually be able to win a Ryder Cup

Jeff,

I agree, the easiest thing for Pettersen would have just been to say yes it was a concession and battle it out up the last, but she has done the right thing now so lets move on.

On a wider note, how long before we have putters being put down to show a putt is "inside the leather" at a RC or SC? 

Cheers,

James

Boonie


Its isn't wise to lie.  The Euro caddie was clear the putt wasn't given...he raised his hands like WTF after the putt was picked up.  With all the good intentions in the world, once the putt wasn't given there was no going back.  The only "solution" was to concede 18...and frankly that would have been an incredible gesture to make to cover up a rookie mistake. 


Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

This exact thing happened to me at the 5th Major. Both my partner and I thought my short putt was given so I picked up my ball. When I was informed otherwise I promptly returned my ball to the previous spot and did the right thing. Missed left. As in this in this instance the Golf Gods were the final jury and handed my team the match.

[James Boon]

Thanks Sean,
I knew Hull and her caddie had walked away (IMO out of no disrespect but that they thought it would be given) but on checking again you are right, the other caddie is still there and gestures accordingly...
Cheers,
James

[Michael Graham]

I have no way of confirming this but was told yesterday by someone with good contacts among the European coaches, caddies and players that Alison Lee was told twice on the Saturday not to pick up putts that hadn't been conceded.


Seems strange that a tour player would have to be told more than once. I imagine she's played a lot of match play in her amateur career.

[Thomas Dai]

I have no way of confirming this but was told yesterday by someone with good contacts among the European coaches, caddies and players that Alison Lee was told twice on the Saturday not to pick up putts that hadn't been conceded.

This seems to have gone distinctly under the radar but to me it's pretty crucial. How many warnings should a player get, irrespective of age and experience? In strokeplay there are no warnings, you make an error your score suffers or it's dq time.


Atb

[Jim Nugent]

I have no way of confirming this but was told yesterday by someone with good contacts among the European coaches, caddies and players that Alison Lee was told twice on the Saturday not to pick up putts that hadn't been conceded.

All that more reason, then, for Hull to stick around and make sure Lee putted out. 

Still I take the warnings with a grain of salt.  Someone from the Euro squad (the captain?) said Lee's partner was pleading with her not to pick up the putt.  From what I read, that is not so. 

It seems crazy to me that Lee picked up the putt without explicit confirmation from Hull or Petterson.  If she had been warned earlier in the match, crazier still.

[Niall C]

Jim


Agreed, there seems to have been a difference of opinion between the Euro's, or at least a difference in assumptions if I can put it that way. Petterson might have a point if she had already warned the US player but her case is more than slightly undermined by the actions of Hull. Unsatisfactory all round.


I think the younger players on both sides need to be told/reminded that a concession isn't automatic and that they should be sure that the putt has been conceded before picking up, and similarly on the other side they need to communicate with their partner as to whether a concession is granted and act accordingly.


Niall

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

how undermined? Has Hull said that she thought the putt was given? Is it really disrespectful for a player to walk away whilst another is putting. If so there are lots of disrespectful players both on the tour and in club play. Yes, it was unfortunate but it would be nice for Lee to take some responsibility for her mistake which as far as I am aware she has not.

It would also be nice if people such as Laura Davies would get worked up about the abysmal pace of play.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Niall,

how undermined? Has Hull said that she thought the putt was given? Is it really disrespectful for a player to walk away whilst another is putting. If so there are lots of disrespectful players both on the tour and in club play. Yes, it was unfortunate but it would be nice for Lee to take some responsibility for her mistake which as far as I am aware she has not.

It would also be nice if people such as Laura Davies would get worked up about the abysmal pace of play.

Jon

http://golfweek.com/news/2010/jul/28/davies-doesnt-hold-back-opinions/?print
 
http://www.golfmagic.com/news/golf-news/slow-play-lauras-drastic-remedy/3818.html
 
http://www.golftoday.co.uk/global_golf_post/2015/ricoh-british-open_slow-play.html


Jon


To be fair, she's probably the quickest around and the most vocal in speaking out.

[Niall C]

Jon


From the actions of Petterson, ie waiting to see the US team putt out and objecting when they picked up I think it fair to say she hadn't conceded the putt. Hull on the other hand had walked away which is either indicating a concession or is rank bad manners, and yes I know other tour players do it all the time, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. And let me say that I am a big fan of Hull after I saw her play at Nairn in the Curtis Cup.


With regards to the average club golfer, I think it very rare that a player walks to the next tee when someone else in the group has still to putt. There is probably various reasons for that not least of which club golfers don't fanny about as much on the greens (even though they generally take more putts) so there is less scope to walk when a player is eyeing up their putt for the umpteenth time,and also club golfers have to do their own scoring/marking and therefore need to see what the others scored.


Niall 

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I have always been a very big supporter of Laura Davies and when I commented on being vocal on slow play I was thinking solely about this SC not in general.

Niall,

Whether it is professional players or amateurs it is the players that marks the cards. My experience of watching amateurs playing tournaments is it is not unusual for them to turn their backs procedures if they are not marking the card of the person still playing. In fourball competitions I have often seen one of the partners on a team walk off leaving their partner to watch play.

Has Hull said why she left the green as without this info all this uproar is purely speculation.

Jon

[Niall C]

Jon

What Hull was thinking or intending is to an extent neither here nor there as its the perception the US player had that counts. I don't think it too unreasonable on her part to assume the putt conceded particularly if its a tap in (haven't seen it so don't know) given Hull had walked away. That said, if she had been warned on one or more occasion(s) previously not to pick up unless hearing a concession then what she did was foolish. The more that I consider it the more I'm coming to the conclusion if anyone was hard done by it was Petterson who was put in a invidious position by the actions of both Hull and the US player (Lee ?).

With regards to the amateur game, it is only in recent years I've ever seen anyone leave the green or green surround in a comp while another player has yet to finish the hole, and even then it's usually to a tee that is adjacent to the green, and even then only very, very rarely by newbies to the game who do what they have seen on TV. I really don't think it's in anyway a regular or normal occurrence in amateur golf.

Niall

[Ruediger Meyer]

The fact that this bland course is a consensus top 10 pick in Germany should tell you enough about the state of Golf architecture in Germany. There are only a handful courses worth talking about (Falkenstein, Frankfurter, Budersand, Foehr, Seddiner See) and a few which are wrongly assumed to be good because they hosted big tournaments or have huge marketing budgets (Winston, Kaden, St. Leon Rot, Scharmützelsee)

[Jon Wiggett]

Ruediger,

the thing that struck me when talking to golf course designers in mainland Europe was how often they were landscape architects with very little knowledge of the game of golf. The planning system in much of Europe  often makes qualification as a landscaper more important than that of GCA. Also, many of the construction firms were general construction or sports field construction company working off plan with very little supervision.

Jon