[Will Lozier]

... if they embarked on a serious tree removal program? Is there any desire (has there ever been) amongst the membership to open the course up? What is the current state of the course in this regard? Crump Cuppers?

[Gib_Papazian]

Absolutely. They don't seem to have a coherent tree management program, which negates some of the strategies lost to years of overgrowth.

Further, by removing specific trees, it would actually make the golf course (even) visually intimidating. My immediate impression playing it the first time (shooting a fairly relaxed 78) was that ignorance was bliss.

In other words, the most horrible outcomes are often obscured by trees; I usually did not see the waiting monster until my ball was safely on the putting surface.

#1 begins with a fairway wide enough land a jumbo jet - and the approach looks to be a straightforward mid-iron to an enormous green that presents as a continuation of the fairway.

It is only when you know the consequences of missing laterally - into the pits of perdition - that the collar gets a bit tight.

For this reason, I have always concluded that PV is a far more difficult test the 2nd time than the first. As an aside, my first NGLA experience was a bit like that. I simply followed Timmons' jabbery instructions and shooting a low score was easy-peasy.

The second time in both instances, not so much. I'm a head case, but that is a plaintive whine for another day.

My tendency when playing a golf course (whether Whitten has sent me or not) is to look very meticulously at everything - particularly on the fringes of play. Composing a photograph or cinema shot is from the frameline in, not the other way around.

I believe #13 at PV is easily top-five par-4 holes in the world. I'm not Tom or Ran, but I've seen plenty. Yet what jumps out at me is the disorganized overgrowth along the left side of the fairway.

Wander into the scrub over there and you'll find the remnants of abandoned bunkers and really interesting contours. Close your eyes and envision all the left-side scrub at the turn of the fairway removed. Wow, the visual impact would be stunning.

#12 certainly could use some chainsaw action because it struck me as unnecessarily claustrophobic. I cannot believe that Crump and Harry Colt intended their carefully arranged strategies to be hidden by a random overgrowth.

The last one that shrieks to be rethought and restored is #17. Not good. I stared at it the first time and tried to decipher the original strategic intent and, well, it's a mess. Alternate routes look to be covered by overgrowth, which makes no sense.

It begs the question on another thread not only whether a particular golf course is a "10," but ultimately if there actually *is* such a thing.

Putting aside Nadia Comăneci or Bo Derek, a "10" is something without a single flaw or imperfection - an expression so perfect, it is impossible to identify any component that has not been optimized to the absolute end of human abilities.

Since golf courses are living, breathing entities constantly in flux, I have changed my mind. There is no such thing as a "10." Not even NGLA (#12 and #8 have been compromised), not even PV, not Pac Dunes, not Old Mac, not Shinnecock Hills, not Muirfield and certainly not Pebble Beach.

Is it possible? Maybe. But nobody has really tried to devote an ongoing 100% effort into examining every molecule of their golf course to maintain an impossible standard of perfection.

NGLA and PV: 9.50.

       

 




       

       

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,


The answer to your question lies within the early aerials circa the 1920's and 1930's.


Gib's comments are reinforced by those aerials

[David Lott]

There's usually more room to screw up a golf course than to improve it. And since a course is always changing even if management makes no changes, it's tricky. The first obligation is to maintain, but maintain what? Trees and turf conditions are the greatest challenges. It's never easy to leave things as they are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Will,

Architecturally, what hole needs improvement ?

[MCirba]

There is tremendous room for improvement in the presentation in terms of tree removal and keeping the sandy waste areas maintained in a more naturally rugged look instead of the sand-pro'd Japanese gardens that have been the recent compromise to fairness and maintainability.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

The photos, ground level and aerial, from the 1920's and 1930's provide ample evidence of PV at its best, when there was no tree encroachment and the sandy areas were more expansive

[MCirba]

No question Pat.

I mentioned presentation but neglected to include playability and angles, which the original course seemed to stress much more than at present.

[Thomas Dai]

Although I'm not in a position to comment on the course itself, I would like to highlight a great line from Gib above which could I'm sure apply to many, many courses -


"I cannot believe that Crump and Harry Colt intended their carefully arranged strategies to be hidden by a randum overgrowth"


To paraphrase, a famous line from a famous film: "I love the sound of chainsaws in the morning. It sounds like......victory."


Atb

[Patrick_Mucci]

To put matters in perspective, each hole at PV is unique.


And, there's not a weak or mediocre hole to be found, so improvement could be defined as fine tuning at best.

[Tim_Weiman]

Speaking of Pine Valley and trees, does anyone know how for back from the original green on #8 were the trees circa 1920-30?


Feels like trees being further back could add to the intimidating appearance of the second shot.

[Jeff Bergeron]

Of all of the world's great clubs why would PV submit to the tree nazis?

[Tim_Weiman]

Of all of the world's great clubs why would PV submit to the tree nazis?

Jeff,


I don't see how tree removal is necessary at Pine Valley, but I would be open to a discussion about how it might benefit a few holes.  As my post above suggests, I do think more openness around the original (left) green at #8 might be interesting.

[Anthony Gholz]

Will:


If it helps here are two from the LOC The Architecture of the American Gardens 1913-22:


Tony

[Anthony Gholz]

[Anthony Gholz]

[Zack Molnar]

Tony,


Could you provide some context for these photos? Where are they taken from on the course?

[Anthony Gholz]

Sorry Zack, no context other than the hole identification, dating range, and the hells 1/2 acre image which all of us know even without actual trips to (into) it.


These are among many photos I found on the Library of Congress web site when researching my recent Port Huron Golf Club history book including our architect Charles Hugh Alison.  We've had a couple members of PV over time (even from a small town in the midwest!) and I've enjoyed sharing my finds with those that have played. 


I ... alas ... haven't even gotten as far as the amusement park.


Tony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Zack,


6 & 7


With regard to the issue of trees, when your ball is in the fairway on # 17 and trees block your shot into the green, those trees need to be removed.


When you have bunkers that have tree branches, roots and trees impeding a recovery shot, they need to be removed.


Many forget that Crump cleared a good portion of the property and then, after designing the holes, the club embarked upon a program of planting trees in the areas not deemed playing corridors

[MCirba]

The first photo is of the 6th hole from near the tee looking at the diagonal carry for the drive.   The second photo shows the expanse across Hells Half Acre on the 7th hole.   

Early photos and aerials show much more of what Crump intended, I believe, than the overgrowth permitted to grow in many of the areas along and within the original hole corridors through benign neglect and through what I believe is a misinterpretation of Crump's "splendid isolation" statements.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Crump/PV intended to rectify the denuding of the land by replanting trees.

That's a separate issue from the issue of benign neglect, which I've been critical of  for over a dozen years.

Sometimes, resisting change is a good thing.

Like many clubs, I think PV forgot an important rule.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness"

I believe that PV was so architecturally solid that the membership took it for granted and allowed the course to slowly devolve.

Grass and trees grow, imperceptibly on a daily basis.
Over the years, little by little, trees and underbrush began encroaching upon the architectural features within the holes along with the corridors of play.

Constructive criticism is a  good thing. 
Without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.
But, some, especially dictators, and I believe in dictators at clubs, don't take any form of criticism well.
Hence, valid criticisms often fall on deaf ears.

There's another factor in play.
"Killing the messenger"
Who dares complain to the dictator ?
But, done in a positive spirit, the constructive criticism might be well received, and/or considered.

Change doesn't usually occur in a rapid fashion at many clubs and I suspect that PV is one of them.

For well over 20 years I've advocated returning the club to its form as presented in the aerials circa the 1920's and 1930's.

You're also well aware of my advocacy of returning the 18th green to the 18th green that Crump conceived, designed and built.

Time will tell if constructive changes (retro) will be made, my problem is that I'm running out of time 

[Jeff Bergeron]

Mike,

Crump/PV intended to rectify the denuding of the land by replanting trees.

That's a separate issue from the issue of benign neglect, which I've been critical of  for over a dozen years.

Sometimes, resisting change is a good thing.

Like many clubs, I think PV forgot an important rule.

"Eternal vigilance is the price of greatness"

I believe that PV was so architecturally solid that the membership took it for granted and allowed the course to slowly devolve.

Grass and trees grow, imperceptibly on a daily basis.
Over the years, little by little, trees and underbrush began encroaching upon the architectural features within the holes along with the corridors of play.

Constructive criticism is a  good thing. 
Without constructive criticism, progress is impossible.
But, some, especially dictators, and I believe in dictators at clubs, don't take any form of criticism well.
Hence, valid criticisms often fall on deaf ears.

There's another factor in play.
"Killing the messenger"
Who dares complain to the dictator ?
But, done in a positive spirit, the constructive criticism might be well received, and/or considered.

Change doesn't usually occur in a rapid fashion at many clubs and I suspect that PV is one of them.

For well over 20 years I've advocated returning the club to its form as presented in the aerials circa the 1920's and 1930's.

You're also well aware of my advocacy of returning the 18th green to the 18th green that Crump conceived, designed and built.

Time will tell if constructive changes (retro) will be made, my problem is that I'm running out of time 

Well said

[Anthony Gholz]

Pat/Mike:


Thanks for the ID on the sixth.  The LOC blurb had 15th.  The 1/2 acre shot was more obvious, but is that a "still in construction" shot?


Also can anyone date the photos more precisely?  The LOC dating is a range from 1913-1922.  My info has eleven holes in play November 1914, all 18 late 1920.  Alison revisions (whatever might have been implemented) on-site March 1921 and final report dated April 1921.


Tony

[Tim_Weiman]

The first photo is of the 6th hole from near the tee looking at the diagonal carry for the drive.   The second photo shows the expanse across Hells Half Acre on the 7th hole.   

Early photos and aerials show much more of what Crump intended, I believe, than the overgrowth permitted to grow in many of the areas along and within the original hole corridors through benign neglect and through what I believe is a misinterpretation of Crump's "splendid isolation" statements.

Mike,


Your comment about "misinterpretation of Crump's splendid isolation" is noteworthy to say the least. If it were possible, I would love to see the documentation to support your comment. Hard to imagine a more interesting golf architecture discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,
 
I don't believe that the replanting of the trees was a misrepresentation of Crump's vision.
 
I do believe that benign neglect led to a misrepresentation of Crump's vision.

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