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Neal_Meagher

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Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #125 on: September 14, 2003, 05:41:20 PM »
Mr. Mucci,

I know better than to be argumentative with you, but I'm confused at your reply to Guesst.

I think you are saying that it is incumbent upon the general contractor or project designer to know what the right hand as well as the left hand is doing on any given project.  I understand that.

But, you also make it sound like you can only guarantee the best results when you spend the most money.  Certainly you don't believe that you can't find competent, willing and energetic workers, designers, etc. that don't cost an arm and a leg?  Certainly you don't believe that the most expensive result is always the best?  

« Last Edit: September 14, 2003, 05:43:41 PM by Neal_Meagher »
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

TEPaul

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2003, 06:26:39 PM »
When it comes to cost I'm sort of fascinated by what I call the "Arab Sheik Mentality".

Let's say some high ticket item has a one million dollar price tag on it. Under the "Arab Sheik Mentality" the thing to do is to pay two million dollars for it!!

(presumably so you can say you did or could!).
« Last Edit: September 14, 2003, 06:29:52 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2003, 06:36:17 PM »
Guesst,
I chose the cheapest GC I could get who I thought could achieve the results I wanted.

I became familiar with the tile and cabinetry industry in my locale.  

I requested my GC hire the specific tile and cabinet people I wanted, and I specified the appliances.
 
The other work he hired out as he saw fit, and I trusted him to see to it they got it right.  The subs were responsible for their own finished product.  The GC was responsible for the overall job.  

A few more questions, then I'll answer yours.

If the sub you insisted that the GC hire, messed up, would you hold the GC responsible, or the sub you wanted ?

If the sub and the GC were in conflict, each blaming each other, how would you determine responsibility ?

How could you pick the cheapest GC and then dictate the subs, when the subs might have been very expensive, due to the quality of their work ?

How could the GC give you a cheap price, without the subs prior approval ?  And, if the subs were expensive, then you couldn't hire the cheapest GC to get the job done.

Was there a penalty clause if the work wasn't done by a certain date ?

Apparently, you chose the subs and price wasn't a consideration, but your choice of the GC was price related.
That appears to be conflicting goals.

To answer your question, I wouldn't put a team together, that might create more problems then you feel it solves.

Who would the subs be loyal to, the GC or me ?

I'd leave the team choice to the architect, with the understanding that the architect knows and understands the finished product that I want.

The bidding process would be in place, however, the lowest bidder might not be awarded the job.

I can't imagine dictating who Pete Dye, Tom Doak or other architects are going to hire as their subs.

Neal Meagher,

The bidding process isn't absolute, there are caveats.
The lowest bidder doesn't always get the job.
The highest bidder doesn't always do the best job,
But, there is a "cost of quality" that is being ignored.
You can't buy tailor made clothes at off the rack prices,
and I'm sure that Guesst understands that analogy.

Craftsmanship, and the quality associated with it, come at a price, and it's usually not the lowest bidder's domain.

If you, your wife or children needed brain surgery or a heart transplant, would you award the job to the lowest bidder ?
Do you dare risk the lowest bidder ?

Guesst would have you believe that the cheapest GC got the job, yet she insisted on quality from two of the vital sub-contractors.  You can't have it both ways.  You can't say that I want the cheapest price, but you have to hire the most capable, and usually, not the most inexpensive sub-contractors.

On a golf course project, and we could use Merion as an example, where Mike Cirba, Tommy Naccarato and others complained about the construction techniques of MacDonald & Sons, with the use of machines, as opposed to hand work and craftsmanship.

Well, hand craftsmanship comes at a price, and that price may not be affordable.  And, the membership might nix the project before it even began, if the project was to be done with hand labor, which would be expensive, and cause them to lose a season of golf.

The "golf course down time" for hand craftsmanship might not be acceptable to the membership.

Tell me what the cost of a car would be if it was built by hand versus the Detroit assembly line.

So, there's a conflict, that's glibly brushed aside.
Quality, it's cost in time and money, and awarding work to the lowest bidder.

Co-incidently, friends of mine are redoing their kitchen on a summer home.  They are thorough, highly organized individuals, well versed in the construction trades, who presented all of the GC's with a dictate.  The kitchen must be up and ready by a specified date.  With the availability of labor, sub-contractors, etc., etc., it eliminated many of the GC's, some of which were on their prefered list.

Hence, this notion of assembling a dream team might be akin to your chances of winning the lottery.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2003, 06:38:10 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Joe Hancock

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Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2003, 07:59:30 PM »
Quality isn't just about craftsmanship...it involves materiels as well. To portray the cost/ quality relationship as strictly a craftsmanship corrolation isn't painting the full picture.

Some suits are woven of silk, some are polyesther.....and either can be custom fit by a quality tailor....

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2003, 09:11:07 PM »
JHancock,

I couldn't agree more.  
I should have specifically included materials, but thought is was implicit in my post.

ie, for green construction, buying rock that looks like popcorn and buying rock that looks like marble, which function differently, can make all the difference in the world, and spending more money for the quality product may be the least expensive method in the long run.  But, if the lowest bidder is awarded the materials, quality can be severely compromised.

TEPaul

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #130 on: September 14, 2003, 09:15:13 PM »
Jeeesus Keeriist almight Pat, that post #134 of yours takes the proverbial cake--talk about twenty questions! What's this site becoming anyway---"This Old House?"

Don't worry about all those damn details and GCs and subs or bidding or whatever--just save some time and cost and get the best quality anyone can ever get---just give Ben and Bill and the Boys a call and it'll all be taken care of for God's sakes! They even tell me that Bill can redo your kitchen for you and if he's too busy floating one of the best greens ever made Jeff Bradley can do a bang up job on your kitchen provided you let him make it look natural!

guesst

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #131 on: September 15, 2003, 03:38:41 AM »
Jeeesus Keeriist almight Pat, that post #134 of yours takes the proverbial cake--talk about twenty questions! What's this site becoming anyway---"This Old House?"

Thank you, TP, I couldn't have said that better myself.  

The general contractor on my kitchen job was not the architect.  I was.  If I knew as much about golf courses as I know about my kitchen, I'd want to be a part of that team, as well.  And I'd want to invite others to join me with whom I wanted to work.  

For many of you here on this board, would it not be possible for you to create a team that would give you just what you want?  For you, TP, that is evidently Bill and Ben and the Boys.  You must be attune to what they do, and I'll bet you feel they would work with you in your quest for perfection.  For a certain Armenian, it would be Meagher and Clem.  Shakelford and Hanse got together in a collaboration that created Rustic . . . which by all accounts turned out pretty well.  I hope to see for myself in a month or so.

I'm not saying that any rich golfer who wants to build a golf course should hire individually every person for every job.  That would be ridiculous, given the egos, the philosophies, the timeframes, and a million other problems even I in my shortsightedness can see.  

I am saying that those of you with strong opinions and expertise of your own could quite possibly build a fine course more cheaply by working together with others of like mind, each man working towards his own strength, than you could by handing Rees, Arthur, Robin, Brian, Tom, Dick, or Harry a million dollar check and telling them to go to it.  

I could be wrong.  I was wrong once before.  ;)  But if I knew what I think you know, I'd want to give it a shot.  

Then again, perhaps I just give ya'll credit for knowing more than you actually do . . .    :-*

By the way, I'm thinking about adding on a bedroom.  Does anyone out there know a good painter?  ;D

JakaB

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #132 on: September 15, 2003, 09:23:27 AM »

By the way, I'm thinking about adding on a bedroom.  Does anyone out there know a good painter?  ;D

Based on what I have seen of Gib's preshot routine...this sounds like a very good idea...not to mention the needed space a dually verbose couple must require.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #133 on: September 15, 2003, 10:40:51 AM »
TEPaul,

When I ask someone, other then yourself, a question,
don't interupt, there is a method to my madness and a path to the light for the likes of you.

Now go to your room and go to bed, you're not getting any milk and cookies tonight.

Guesst,

Could you please answer the questions I posed, thanks.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #134 on: September 15, 2003, 11:32:31 AM »
 Reading GCA.com threads is like panning for gold.Even this thread about the threads is a perfect example.There have been several good examples of how we have had an impact .That is enough for me.
    I hope that the New Mexico gathering can develop some more specific ways that we can aid green cmtes.They often  are adrift with little quality support.
AKA Mayday

guesst

Re:Is GCA.com a sideshow?Or can it add to a club's serious architectural discuss
« Reply #135 on: September 15, 2003, 03:55:58 PM »
TP, never fear.  I'll bet my cookies are better than Patrick's . . . warm from the oven, and lip-licking good.  :P

Patrick, I have to go to work now, but I'll be back tonight.  I was in the middle of assuaging your curiosity about my kitchen yesterday when my power went out and I lost a couple thousand words . . . but I won't neglect you . . .  this is my own education I'm working on, you know.   :-*