[Jason Topp]

Have you ever seen a facility add nine holes and have it work out well?  I am not sure I have.  In all such circumstances I can recall, the new holes are completely out of character from the original 18.  Unless all three resulting 9's are of similar quality, customers express a strong preference for playing a certain combination of holes.
The only time I have seen it really work well is when the additional 9 is a great par three course such as at Sutton Bay or Augusta National.
Does anyone have examples of an additional 9 holes improving the quality of a golf facility? 

[BHoover]

New Albany CC outside Columbus, OH has 3 nines and I'd say they are similar. I'm not saying they are great, but I don't think any nine is particularly better than the others, nor is one nine any less than the others.

I've played New Albany many times, and I can't say that I was ever disappointed by playing a particular combination of the nines. The nines really are very similar.

I can't recall whether all three nines opened at the same time, or whether the third nine opened later.

[Jason Topp]

New Albany CC outside Columbus, OH has 3 nines and I'd say they are similar. I'm not saying they are great, but I don't think any nine is particularly better than the others, nor is one nine any less than the others.

Brian - was an additional 9 added later or were they built at the same time?

[BHoover]

New Albany CC outside Columbus, OH has 3 nines and I'd say they are similar. I'm not saying they are great, but I don't think any nine is particularly better than the others, nor is one nine any less than the others.

Brian - was an additional 9 added later or were they built at the same time?

I modified my original post. I can't remember whether the course opened with 18 holes and then added 9, or whether it originally opened with 27.

New Albany hosted the original Wendy's Three Tour Challenge, and for some reason I think the club had only 18 originally. But I don't know that for sure.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I was thinking about this very subject just the other day. While I've never seen Rolling Rock in person, It appears there is a large disconnect between the Ross nine and the Silva nine and I'd expect to be disappointed to not play the Ross nine twice. I wonder if for continuity the club would have been better off staying as 9.


I feel most of the time when a course expands from 9 to 18 by employing a new designer, the best chance they have at ending up with a successful course is when the new architect utilized the foundation elements of the original nine in the additional nine but at the same time reworks the original nine to match the look of the new nine. Removing the possible disconnect between the two pieces of work.

[Tom_Doak]

Have you ever seen a facility add nine holes and have it work out well?  I am not sure I have.  In all such circumstances I can recall, the new holes are completely out of character from the original 18.  Unless all three resulting 9's are of similar quality, customers express a strong preference for playing a certain combination of holes.
The only time I have seen it really work well is when the additional 9 is a great par three course such as at Sutton Bay or Augusta National.
Does anyone have examples of an additional 9 holes improving the quality of a golf facility?

Jason:


I haven't been there in years, but I know that Southern Hills had Coore & Crenshaw add a third nine at some point. I don't know what their intent was for the additional holes.


It is rare to see additions to courses, in part because the land value goes up and the new property is too expensive to buy at a later date.  You more often see the opposite effect, where a club like St. George's in Toronto once had 27 holes, but sold off nine after a few years.

[Phil McDade]

For reasons I've never quite understood, Wisconsin seems to have a disproportionate share of these courses -- 27 holes which were originally 18 holes and then expanded. There are at least a half-dozen within an hour from my house in greater Madison, and several others scattered around the state.


I wouldn't call any of the courses outstanding -- most fall into the "pretty decent" Doak 4 or 5 category -- but it's been my experience that the best set of holes (not necessarily the best 18, but perhaps the best nine or the best collection of individual holes) are usually the ones on the original 18.


Probably the best-known one is Andy North's Trapper's Turn in Wisconsin Dells.

[Jeff Shelman]

To me, it seems like an additional nine would work best if it was part of the initial plans and then constructed later.


I believe that is what happened at a place outside of Athens called The Georgia Club. I played the original 18 shortly after it opened and there were already plans for nine more holes. I think it was constructed after they sold a certain number of lots, etc.

[Thomas Dai]

Some to consier -


Carne - Kilmore 9
[size=78%]Castlerock - Bann 9[/size]
[size=78%]Enniscrone - modified/new holes incorporated into main course and separate 9-hole course from original holes[/size]
[size=78%]County Sligo - Bomore 9[/size]
[size=78%]Burnham & Berrow - Channel 9[/size]

[size=78%]Atb[/size]

[noonan]

A former friend designed and built 18 holes on some nice farmland in Ohio in 1988. Probably a Doak 2 or 3 at best.  The original 18 was an easy walk and was very busy. They did well in the 90's boom and decided to add 9 more late 90's so he could build the course around his new house.

The new 9 was across the street. It had a different mix of holes and some of them were nice. Others were just ok. Quality was as good as the original 9. It never grew in as well as the original 18. In the end most people want to play the original course.

I seen the books then they had 18 and 27. 900K gross revenue with 18 holes. 970K with 27. Not a wise expansion.

[Bob Montle]

Saskatoon near Grand Rapids Michigan had three very similar nines opening a few years apart.
They are all placed on the same terrain and all have way too many pine trees bordering the fairways.
What makes Saskatoon different is the length of the three nines.
From the BACK tees:  3022 yds par 35;   3303 yds par 36;   3561 yds par 37
More recently they added a fourth nine, 3090 yds par 36

IMHO, the best feature of the place is their three hole course.  A par 4, par 3 and a par 5 for a $4 greens fee!

[Jay Mickle]

Two more to the list: Portmarnock  and Neshanic Valley (NJ)

[Mark Johnson]

country club of jackson (MI)


The marsh 9 has a different character, but is still a very strong option and provides more variety.

[Matthew Rose]

For reasons I've never quite understood, Wisconsin seems to have a disproportionate share of these courses -- 27 holes which were originally 18 holes and then expanded. There are at least a half-dozen within an hour from my house in greater Madison, and several others scattered around the state.


I wouldn't call any of the courses outstanding -- most fall into the "pretty decent" Doak 4 or 5 category -- but it's been my experience that the best set of holes (not necessarily the best 18, but perhaps the best nine or the best collection of individual holes) are usually the ones on the original 18.


Probably the best-known one is Andy North's Trapper's Turn in Wisconsin Dells.

Ah yes, southern Wisconsin seems to have a thing for adding third nines. The Springs also comes to mind. Also that forgettable place out by I-90 at the Edgerton exit..... Coachman's? I played all three of those in one day, and they actually fit together, mainly because they had absolutely no character whatsoever.


Out here in Denver, one of the places I play the most features an 18 and a 9. The separate 9 was once the front nine of the original course. They took the old back 9 and added 9 holes out at the far end of the property to make it a non-returning 18. That was done in the late 80s. Generally they fit in pretty well, although I personally like the holes on the isolated 9 better and think it might have been a better course before.

[BHoover]

Fowler's Mill in Chesterland, OH (east of Cleveland) is a 27-hole facility (at least it had 26 last time I played it). Each nine is fairly similar to the others. I think Pete Dye's original design was for all three nines, but if I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me.

[Jason Lietaer]

Hamilton Golf and Country Club did this.  The original Colt course (which, despite losing the original Colt bunker style) is fantastic and was built in about 1915.  They added a new nine in the mid-1970's that was designed by CE (Robbie) Robinson, an apprentice of Stanley Thompson's.


The Championship course (which they call the West and South nines) is superior in every possible way to the East nine.   The Colt 18 has been ranked in the 70's in the world top 100 before, and has hosted the Canadian open a number of times.  It gets some love here on GCA from time to time and at times really reminds me of being at the New Course at Sunningdale.  The east nine, while a decent layout, is just another really nice parkland golf course. 


As you mentioned, in my experience the members grumble when they are sent out on the East nine.  Worse, guests paying the full freight expect to play the "championship" course, and are sometimes disappointed.  It's all a bit awkward, despite being a top-notch facility. 

[Sean_A]

Have you ever seen a facility add nine holes and have it work out well?  I am not sure I have.  In all such circumstances I can recall, the new holes are completely out of character from the original 18.  Unless all three resulting 9's are of similar quality, customers express a strong preference for playing a certain combination of holes.
The only time I have seen it really work well is when the additional 9 is a great par three course such as at Sutton Bay or Augusta National.
Does anyone have examples of an additional 9 holes improving the quality of a golf facility?

So long as clubs set a firm policy of an 18 holer and a 9 holer I can see no reason why 27 hoels couldn't work. The worst thing for a club to do is act as if the 3 nines are interchangable.  Call a spade a spade. 



The Channel 9 at Burnham has taken a long time to come into its own, but it is a good addition for the club. In addition to offering a pretty cheap pay and play rate (£20 all day) there is a separate membership available which acts as a feeder system to the main club and offers a place for seniors to play once they no longer can handle the Championship 18.  Its an easy walking course and has a few holes which could easily be on the main course.  Most people overlook the course when dropping in, but they should make time for it...its only an extra tenner on the green fee. 


Ciao

[Criss Titschinger]

Fowler's Mill in Chesterland, OH (east of Cleveland) is a 27-hole facility (at least it had 26 last time I played it). Each nine is fairly similar to the others. I think Pete Dye's original design was for all three nines, but if I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me.

I'll have to dig out the scorecard from Fowler's Mill. It gives some interesting information. For example, the original plan actually had 54 holes, but was later condensed to 27. I'd have to see in what order the holes were built. I didn't have a chance to play the 3rd 9 when I played due to horrible PoP (6.5 hours!!!) on the proper 18 (River/Lakes), so I can't comment on the other 9. Consensus seems to be it's fine, but not up to the level of other 18.

[BHoover]

Fowler's Mill in Chesterland, OH (east of Cleveland) is a 27-hole facility (at least it had 26 last time I played it). Each nine is fairly similar to the others. I think Pete Dye's original design was for all three nines, but if I'm wrong, hopefully someone will correct me.

I'll have to dig out the scorecard from Fowler's Mill. It gives some interesting information. For example, the original plan actually had 54 holes, but was later condensed to 27. I'd have to see in what order the holes were built. I didn't have a chance to play the 3rd 9 when I played due to horrible PoP (6.5 hours!!!) on the proper 18 (River/Lakes), so I can't comment on the other 9. Consensus seems to be it's fine, but not up to the level of other 18.

As I think back to the last time I played the third nine, I think you're right. It's not quite up to the other 18.

[Steve Burrows]

Otter Creek in Columbus, Indiana has an original 18 holes designed by RTJ Sr in the mid-1960s, and an additional 9 holes added by Rees Jones in the mid-1990s.  Don't think anyone complains too much about the new holes, but there is no mistaking a difference in style between them and the old ones.  Tee times are set up to allow a rotation between the 9s, so it is easy to make sure you play whichever grouping of holes you want to play.

[Mark Johnson]

Jason,


Please tell me that windsong isn't comtemplating a 3rd nine?

[David Whitmer]

The Golf Center at Kings Island, the course Jack Nicklaus mentions in his feature interview, was an 18-hole facility (never mind the executive course attached to it) that, to my knowledge, is the only course to have regularly hosted a PGA, LPGA, and Senior PGA tour stop. Sometime in the mid-90s a third nine was added by Jay Morrish, and some fairly nice homes were built up around this new nine.

Owner Carl Lindner (who used to own the Cincinnati Reds, among many, many other pursuits) then sold the entire facility to the city of Mason, OH. The city then sold off a few separate chunks of the 27 holes for development, and what is now left is 22 holes and no driving range. Additionally, it's never in the shape it used to be in. It's a shame...I guess the lure of big bucks was too much to overcome, and as a result a once-fantastic golf operation is kind of a shell of its former self.

Also, Shaker Run Golf Course in Lebanon, OH (site of the US Publinks maybe 10 years ago) added a third nine at some point. I don't care for the original golf course, so I haven't been there in a while and can't speak to the new nine.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Hamilton Golf and Country Club did this. ..

The Championship course (which they call the West and South nines) is superior in every possible way to the East nine.   ...  The east nine, while a decent layout, is just another really nice parkland golf course. 

I have played Hamilton a number of times and normally the West-South "championship" combo.  So I haven't played the East nine a whole lot, but I think the east nine is a little better than your description.  I could be wrong but I do believe that at least one hole from the original 18 is included on the East nine.  The finishing hole on the East nine is also quite a good hole.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,


Please tell me that windsong isn't comtemplating a 3rd nine?

Nothing specific.  We have additional land that might be used for something some day.

[Rich Goodale]

I was a member of Sawgrass CC in Ponte Vedra from 1987-1990.  First played the original 18-hole course (East-West) in 1982, just after it lost the TPC to its noisy neighbour across Highway A1A.  The 3rd 9 (South) was added in 1985.  The club operated on a 27-hole basis, rotating the 9's for daily 18-holers depending on maintenance needs, and it worked well.  All three 9's were excellent and different, and IMO the best combination of the three 9's was East-South.

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