Road Holes: Tillie - MacK - Ross?

[George_Bahto]

About a week ago we had a discussion about Road holes which got me to thinking a little more about this great strategy and its use other architects

Given my more narrow view of architects (haven’t got the time to investigate thoroughly the other great ones), I would be interested in finding out if there are many holes with this great overall strategy built by the other great architects of the Golden Age (Ross, Mackenzie, Tillinghast and all the others of that day - or even by the architects of today.

I don’t mean some overly disguised version but fairly accurate depictions of the great Road Hole.

I would also welcome version of the green complex itself which would include the problematic and diabolical second/third-shot attack of the green.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

George,
Emmet used the Road green for a long par-5 at Huntington Country Club's 7th. It's very interesting. Oddly, it's angled to open more toward the fairway, putting serious emphasis on the location of the layup if you want to hit into the length of the green to get at holes cut behind the road bunker. It is one cool green on a nifty and underated old gem of a course.
Geoff

[George_Bahto]

right - we walked the course together

I almost discount Emmet because he was so influenced by his good friend CBM afterhe help at NGLA.

At Leatherstocking there was a Emmet Road hole also - now the green is gone

[Robert Emmons]

Thanks again on the view of Huntington C.C. As green chairman I have been involved in all the recent work. The 7th "road hole " green was redesigned in 1921 based on the measurements of the 17th at St. Andrews. Taking the place of the actual road at St. Andrews is the embankment and extended bunker on the right.The green is challenging to go for in two and can be severe if you go left. On a layup the green does open up from the right but this brings the fescues into play...Thanks

[TEPaul]

George:

You probably know about the heritage of it although I've never heard it established (obviously David Goddard must know and I'll ask him) but the 2nd green at Maidstone is one of the best (and most exact) arcihtectural representations of a road hole green--and really does play excellently, I might add.

I'd find it very hard to believe if Raynor (or maybe Macdonald) didn't do that green (or hole) at some point but if for some odd reason it was another architect that would indeed be interesting because it is such an exact road hole copy!

[Craig Disher]

From the late 30s. The right greenside bunker is obscured by the trees but you get the idea.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Why do you feel that this green design hasn't been duplicated more over all these years ?

It presents one of the most comprehensive strategic/tactical challenges that I've ever seen.

[TEPaul]

George:

Other than the redan green what other architects copied any of the other holes that MacDonald brought back from Europe? At least exactly? My sense is that no other architects would've wanted to copy the "template" holes of MacD/Raynor for obvious reasons--ie borrowing another architects concepts and ideas, showing lack of their own originality etc.

Flynn did lots of different kinds of redans on his courses but they were definitely his own spin on the type and mostly as different as he could get them and Tillie's redan at Somerset Hills is certainly a very different iteration.

I can't really think of another architect who did exact copies of his own holes so I wouldn't think they'd want to do exact copies of anyone else's. There's a particular green that Perry Maxwell did a bunch of times but it seems like he always tried to do something different to it to hide the copy--like flip all the quadrants around etc.

That certainly could be why the Road Hole wasn't copied or done by other architects--basically because MacDonald copied it first!

[George_Bahto]

Patrick: It is very strange that they would copy Redan, Alps, lots of versions of Eden holes and others but not copy the great Road hole strategy - that's why I posed the question - to see what was out there by the other architects.

How the heck would they have skipped over that gem.

Obvious answer: they didn't want to be accused of copy-catting. ....even though they did on the others)

Would Faz put up Pete's boarded bunker faces?
Would Raynor build Ross-style greens?
Would Ross do Maxwell rolls?
Would Tom D do "von" hah () Hagge or Muirhead?

..... but to skip over this incredibly great strategy is nuts - damned if I would/will  !!

[George_Bahto]

Tommy: Actually David Goddard called me when he was doing the Maidstone club history and told me that he had info from the Maidstone archives that Seth Raynor worked on the course, not once, but twice ..... he (David) even dug up the fees Raynor was paid.

He expanded the course with C W Vaughn (who I think was the super or pro) in 1916 (check that early date!) and then again was there in 1922.

That 2nd hole at Maidstone is indeed Raynor's hole - I'm sure he might thank you for the compliment (hah).  There are a couple more holes of his out there - an Eden if I remember correctly and there are a couple of abandoned holes out in the brush - I know of a Leven hole out there for one.

Craig - thanks for the aerial shot

TomP: I built a Tillie style Redan at a Tillie course on "Lung" Island ..... or is that "Lun-Guy'-Lund"  - and talked with all the Tillie gurus (Trebis/Wolffe & Rand Jerris) about Tillies best Redans and where to look at them ........  answer:  Somerset Hills #2 was it .... although there is one at North Shore CC (Long Is), the 9th - and even the one where I'm working now, Essex County CC (NJ), their 6th.

I'd certainly like to see if there are any more Tillie Redan's out there also.

It seems the great AWT put his high shoulder more into the green instead of the CBM/SR style of the hill before the green .... or at least so it seems to me so far. Any further info would be welcome.

[Jim]

I think it is #12 at Hakensack Golf Club is a Tille Redan.

Jim

[George_Bahto]

Jim: Seth Raynor and Charles Banks designed Hackensack in 1925 and it was finally finished up by Banks in 1927. Two brothers Gordon did some revisions there early on and Rees J. did "his thing" there in about 1990.

Actually I have a video of some of the construction of the course that was converted from a 8 or 16MM film taken by one of the memebers during const.. great film - lots of dynamiting of stumps - great archive.