Chambers Bay conditions update

[Andrew Buck]

I should know this, but why is it top amateurs like Brian Campbell who graduate don't turn pro for the U.S. Open.  They indicated he had to go through local and sectional, so I don't think it was an exempt issue.

I'm sure there is something.

[David_Tepper]

"I should know this, but why is it top amateurs like Brian Campbell who graduate don't turn pro for the U.S. Open." 

Andrew B. -

One reason could be that an amateur like Brian C. is hoping to play in the Walker Cup later this year.

DT

[Craig Sweet]

The USGA said yesterday morning the greens were running 11 to 11 1/2 and they expected them to firm up and speed up as the day progressed....maybe gain another 6 inches in speed.  They looked as if they were rolling smooth on TV. However, the question I asked earlier....What will CB do long term with the fescue? Keep it? Ditch it for bent?  It simply does not seem sustainable.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Watching the afternoon play over the seed heads -- and seeing pro after pro leave putts short, just like us chops! -- I remembered a thread discussion that appears lost but here's the original article we discussed:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html

So my question is, how about poa as an integral design element?? You know, "it's not a bug, it's a feature"?

[Niall C]

The USGA said yesterday morning the greens were running 11 to 11 1/2 and they expected them to firm up and speed up as the day progressed....maybe gain another 6 inches in speed.  They looked as if they were rolling smooth on TV. However, the question I asked earlier....What will CB do long term with the fescue? Keep it? Ditch it for bent?  It simply does not seem sustainable.

Intersting, the Open usually aims for 10.5 tops and you remember the carnage at St Andrews a few years back. I wonder what would happen here if the wind began to really blow.


Niall

[RKoehn]

Interesting how the GCA crowd almost universally praises a course because it is visually brown and the greens are bumpy (or worse, read Sergio's twitter comments yesterday), while ignoring that it is a full 10 mile walk resulting in 5.5 hour rounds of golf, with many holes ending in pinball-like circus shots that travel the near circumference of the greens.  Finally, with 25 guys under par after Thursday, it seems probable that the USGA will need to make the course even more circus-like on the weekend if it wants to contain scoring.  Not sure if they're willing to do that....


https://twitter.com/TheSergioGarcia/status/611650406322540544


https://twitter.com/TheSergioGarcia/status/611662507141259264

[Adam Clayman]

Circus like?

One of us
One of us

[Jason Thurman]

It's not a 10 mile walk... unless you're taking the route Tiger is taking.


The walk also has little to do with the round times. It's a US Open. They have almost 160 players, and they're sending them in waves off the 1st and 10th tees. The tee times in each wave are spread over two hours and 15 minutes, making it virtually impossible to make the turn in less than 2 1/2 hours. That's a 5 hour round if you play as quickly as logistics allow, and it assumes no time-consuming rulings, no Camilo Villegas disasters, and no 15 handicappers dressing up as Tiger Woods and trying to play.


The greens do look a little rough, especially in the high traffic areas that appear to be going to dirt, but it seemed like they rolled reasonably through most of round one. I'm reminded of the greens at Torrey Pines and Pebble Beach in a couple of recent west coast Opens where the ball bounced and wobbled like it was on gravel. Truthfully, the greens at Chambers appeared to roll much smoother than the ones at those courses in '08 and '10. Is the fescue really rolling worse than the poa greens at those locations? Will it get worse as the week goes along? Are shitty greens just one of the downsides of a west coast US Open?

[RKoehn]

Greg Norman said yesterday it was a 10 mile walk if you were walking down the middle of the fairway.  With a 7,900 yard course on the scorecard, plus seemingly huge distances between holes, 10 sounds close on an all-in basis though I haven't been there.  Just going by what the experts on the ground are saying.

[Josh Tarble]

One day in, I think this has been one of the more enjoyable Opens I've watched.  I saw a lot of great shots, a ton of awful shots and everything in between.  I also saw a ton of putts made.  I am not really worried about the greens because every player is subject to the same conditions.  It's all about managing them...people like Sergio are already done.  Bad greens didn't seem to effect Stenson and DJ. 

[Jason Thurman]

Greg Norman said yesterday it was a 10 mile walk if you were walking down the middle of the fairway.  With a 7,900 yard course on the scorecard, plus seemingly huge distances between holes, 10 sounds close on an all-in basis though I haven't been there.  Just going by what the experts on the ground are saying.

Greg Norman is from a country that uses the metric system. I wouldn't call him an "expert on the ground" when it comes to the mileage of anything.


I've heard media members call it everything from a 7 mile walk to a 10 mile walk. Personally, I just solve simple math questions with simple math. 7900 yards (the course actually is playing more like 7450, but let's use your number) is 4.48 miles. If it's 10 miles walking down the center of the fairways, then there's another 9715 yards worth of green-to-tee transitions out there. It didn't seem to me like the average transition between holes was 540 yards. Do you still think it "sounds close on an all-in basis"?


I often track my mileage walked when I play, and even on 6500 yard courses I typically walk at least 6 miles. Whistling Straits was more like 11. But that's not walking down the center of fairways.

[Richard Choi]

Greg Norman said yesterday it was a 10 mile walk if you were walking down the middle of the fairway.  With a 7,900 yard course on the scorecard, plus seemingly huge distances between holes, 10 sounds close on an all-in basis though I haven't been there.  Just going by what the experts on the ground are saying.

Greg Norman is smoking crack. You may walk about 7 miles max.

[Adam Lawrence]

Greg Norman said yesterday it was a 10 mile walk if you were walking down the middle of the fairway.  With a 7,900 yard course on the scorecard, plus seemingly huge distances between holes, 10 sounds close on an all-in basis though I haven't been there.  Just going by what the experts on the ground are saying.

Given that 7,900 yards is less than four and a half miles, I think it's a stretch to imagine that you have to walk further between holes than you do while on them.


Now don't get me wrong, CB is a long and tough walk. But we shouldn't exaggerate.

[Niall C]

Interesting how the GCA crowd almost universally praises a course because it is visually brown and the greens are bumpy (or worse, read Sergio's twitter comments yesterday), while ignoring that it is a full 10 mile walk resulting in 5.5 hour rounds of golf, with many holes ending in pinball-like circus shots that travel the near circumference of the greens. 

I don't think anyone on here champions bumpy greens. As for colour, that usually is an indicator of how firm the ground is and it is that that gets people excited. Please note that firm and fast doesn't mean bumpy in case you were thinking it did.


Now personally, I do prefer firm and fast but happy with slightly firm but not splodgy. Hope that helps.


Niall

[David Davis]

It's the US Open, Sergio is supposed to be a winer and then get booed by the crowd for his mental infancy. Isn't that the way it works? I mean if his mental game was a fraction of his talent he would of already been a multiple major winner.


The greens seem to be rolling fine, I'm sure in the afternoon it's a little bumpier. Also way windier for that matter.

[Mike Hendren]

RKoehn, I believe quoting Greg Norman and Sergio Garcia is what the attorneys call res ipsa loquitur.
 
Kingest regards,
 
Mike

[Brent Hutto]

 In one respect to Tour pros are much like myself, the guys I play with every day and golfers in general.  When the greens or mediocre or poor it doesn't matter much if the rest of the course is good bad or indifferent.  The greens this week are mediocre although the last few groups of the day would probably say poor

[Richard Choi]

Brent, the greens got better (in comparison) in the afternoon as the speeds picked up. There were more speed inconsistency problems with the early group.

[Andrew Buck]

While I'm not a fan of "changing par" period, I'm really not a fan of doing it on the 1st and 18th during the first two rounds that feature split tees.  While everyone plays the same holes, there is a big difference in bot starting on a par 5 vs par 4 and finishing on a par 5 vs par 4.

[Will Lozier]

From Geoff Ogilvy:


https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/chambers-bay-greens-perfectly-fine-says-ogilvy-051859387--golf.html

[RKoehn]

RKoehn, I believe quoting Greg Norman and Sergio Garcia is what the attorneys call res ipsa loquitur.
 
Kingest regards,
 
Mike

Interesting.  Tim Rosaforte reported early this morning on Golf Channel that Ernie Els privately said they are the worst greens he had played in his career.  Notah Begay said these are the worst greens they've played all year.  The greens are awful, which is too bad because Poa can provide some of the best putting surfaces ever if properly maintained.

Obviously, this is subjective and not something that can be measured, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and putt-maker).  I personally putt better on poor greens, but that's because I'm not usually a great putter. 

My point (again, purely personal opinion) is that this course, while visually stunning, is goofy and not a good choice for a U.S. Open.  The setup favors neither the straight driver (fairways are very wide) nor the great putter (the greens are in poor condition).  In my view, a U.S. Open should require both aspects of the player's game to be in tip top shape.

The argument often used by defenders is "everyone is playing the same course."  Well, obviously.  But if that's the case who cares what the architecture, setup and conditions are at all?  It's a ridiculous argument.

Cheers.  I'll be watching this weekend regardless because I love golf, and I think it will be entertaining.

[Phil McDade]

Brent, the greens got better (in comparison) in the afternoon as the speeds picked up. There were more speed inconsistency problems with the early group.

Richard:


Mickelson suggested the same yesterday post-round, and I read somewhere (GolfDigest?) that a few greens were re-built/re-seeded/re-done after the US Am, and that those greens were running at different speeds than the original greens. Can you confirm? I'd go through your tour de force 18-hole but need to run right now. Keep up the great work!

[Garland Bayley]

... it is a full 10 mile walk resulting in 5.5 hour rounds of golf ...

What other fiction do you publish? Have I read it somewhere?

[Phil McDade]

My point (again, purely personal opinion) is that this course, while visually stunning, is goofy and not a good choice for a U.S. Open.  The setup favors neither the straight driver (fairways are very wide) nor the great putter (the greens are in poor condition).  In my view, a U.S. Open should require both aspects of the player's game to be in tip top shape.

I don't view the course as goofy; it's different than most traditional US Opens (tight parkland course with thick rough), but I'm not sure it's goofy. Sure, the fairways are wide, but there are clearly spots in the fairway that are preferable to others, and I saw all kinds of players "penalized" for not hitting it in appropriate places off the tee. It's a somewhat different kind of test off the tee than a traditional US Open, but it is a test -- loose play off the tee has been penalized, as has been careless recovery shots.


I don't quite get the notion that "great putters" won't be rewarded due to the the conditions of the greens. If the greens are in poor shape (to me they look slower than usual for a US Open, and bumpier than, say, an Oakmont, but similar to what I've seen at Pebble Beach for Opens), wouldn't having to negotiate those favor the better putter? Won't the lesser putter struggle even more so on slower/bumpier/worse shape greens? (To belabor this, the very best putters have ((almost)) always been bold, aggressive putters willing to go at the hole because they are so confident of making the 3-to-5 foot comebacker if they miss. Everything I've read so far indicates these CBay greens require solid, firm ball-striking on putts -- isn't that what good putters do anyway?)


I think asking players to think about using sideboards, where to place balls off the tee to expansive fairways, dealing with enormous vertical changes from tee to green, and negotiating sections of multi-tiered, quite contoured greens is a solid test of golf -- not in keeping with what we've come to expect from a US Open, but it's a good test. I'm mainly struck -- one day is obviously a small sample size -- by the big disparity in scoring. Some really good golfers (Fowler, Oosthouizen, Charley Hoffman, Ryan Moore, McDowell) really struggled with the course. Yet it yielded two 65s, a 66, three 67s and more than two dozen under-par rounds. I'm sure aggregate scores will go up as this moves on, but the course seems to be rewarding thoughtful, good play and punishing loose, ill-considered play -- always the mark of a good test, it seems.

[Garland Bayley]

Greg Norman said yesterday it was a 10 mile walk if you were walking down the middle of the fairway.  With a 7,900 yard course on the scorecard, plus seemingly huge distances between holes, 10 sounds close on an all-in basis though I haven't been there.  Just going by what the experts on the ground are saying.

Perhaps Greg Norman has been on the metric system too long. Or, perhaps he said 10 kilometers and you heard miles. But characterizing Greg Norman as an expert on the ground is a bit farcical.


Furthermore, there are no huge distances between holes. Most holes have a reasonable transition, with the crossover between nines being a bit out of the ordinary.