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BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guesst -

Being from Atlanta, I just want to say (insert southern drawl here) it is an honah and a privilege to have you join us. Down this way, we would not expect you to go gator huntin' or barroom brawlin' to be considered one of us. L'ssin, of course, if you want to.

(Delete southern drawl) Back on the old TraditionalGolf.com site there was a wonderful older woman who posted often. She had been involved in golf and knew a lot of older courses and players. She was often a calming influence. Much more effective that Dr. Katz's interventions.

Anyone recall her name or where she is? I'd love to hear from her again.  Tommy? redanman?

Bob
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 09:30:52 AM by BCrosby »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0

Bob,

    I can't remember her name, surely Dick Daley does. She should up for our Traditional Golf gathering when we were in Southern Pines. She didn't play but she rode around with us at Tobacco Road. A wonderful lady as I recall.


Tommy_Naccarato

Patsy, and she lived not far from Ran if I remember in Southern Pines or Pine Needles.

Tommy_Naccarato

Pat,
You serve yourself no justice bringing up that dead rodent found lying on the side of the road dead. I'm sure if you asked Bill Greenwood, he would feel the same too. (About that series of posts)

It's over and done with and not even you could bring the style of the old bunkers back to form, in place of the newer versions. (even if you wanted them)

It took a bit of analysis, but I can now vouch for the credibility of Guesst. She does know her stuff, and no one bother asking me who she is (with the exception of Tom Paul, Neal Meagher, or Gib) because I ain't tellin'!

(Add Bob C. to that esteemed list becauase he IS a true Southern Gentleman!)(Add Bob Huntley in there too!)




TEPaul

"DMoriarty,

You may choose to try to nitpick and dispute the facts, but the facts are that Fazio oversaw the work at Merion and Pine Valley.

If you have in your possession, facts that prove that someone else oversaw those two projects, please present them."

Pat:

Do you think Tom Fazio oversaw the work at Merion? Oversaw the work as in being the project manager for the Fazio organization? I thought you knew that the project manager of the Merion bunker project was Tosh Belsinger from the Fazio organization. Tom Fazio didn't oversee the Merion bunker project. And for the PVGC short course project Tom Fazio used practically every associate he had to work on that project---read his book, he says exactly that.

Tommy_Naccarato

Get ready everyone, this thread is now going to turn into a 50,000 page view post with 20 different pages!

Tom, I had this typed out a few days ago to reiterate it to Pat, just before you had gotten back and somehow I accidently messed up and hit the back button and lost the whole post!


Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
opps ::)

I'm a dork, guestt is a female.  Great!  My apologies for being a stupid sexist male in assuming that you were a man.  

Still.....great post.

 ::) ::)my bad
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

DMoriarty

You must be kidding, or, you can't be serious.

Do you mean that Tommy Naccarato, Mike Cirba and others who were villifying Fazio over Merion's bunkers were misguided, incorrect and totally out of line ?

I suggest you plea bargain, this is a case you can't win.

 

Patrick, I have absolutely no idea to what you think you are responding. Are you sure you are responding my last post?  Just in case, here it is (with your quotes removed):

Patrick, I am not disputing any facts.  Just asking you to support your conclusion that Mr. Fazio oversaw the projects in question.  (How about Riviera, did he oversee that too?)  You see, I learned somewhere on this site that we should not put forth our opinions and conclusions, unless we have at hand the supporting facts.  

Funny thing, language.  One man's request for supporting facts is another's nitpicking.  One man's opinion is another's bias . . .

I have no facts in my possession that prove anything about either project.  But then I am not the one offering my opinions and conclusions about the projects, am I?

As for whether Mike, Tommy and "others" were " misguided, incorrect and totally out of line,"  is this a multiple choice question or a Yes/No?  Never mind.  I dont know the answer either way.  I vaguely recall those threads, but I think I ignored the writing and went straight for the pictures.  

So back to the topic . . . what facts support your conclusion that Fazio "oversaw" the work in question?  Surely not any you've offered above . . .

guesst

Tom Paul,
Double Dawg Danged!

Mr. Crosby,
Thank you for your kind offer of hospitality.  I assure you that even if I do attend a function in gator huntin' or barroom brawlin' attire, no one will believe me to be one of the boys, although I am happy to be an honorary member of that club.

Emperor,
My gratitude for the voucher.  It would please me to have the chance to redeem it one day.

Mdugger,
Your error was perfectly understandable.  I had hoped that posting a picture of myself (or a facsimile thereof) next to my posts would ameliorate that problem, but apparently it just made everyone think I like redheads . . . ;)

And now that the niceties have been taken care of . . . . .
Back to Golf Course Architecture!  :-*

TEPaul

If the photo on your posts is you, guesst, I think I want to go barroom brawlin' with you but you have to be on the other side. On second thought, forget the brawlin' part--barroom wraslin' would be much better.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
First, the lady's name is Patsy Johnson, and she is a wonderful person who was a fine am player in her time.  She is in the Carolina hall of fame.  She lives in Spartanburg SC.  Evan Fleisher has been in touch with her lately.  She has been afflicted with a terrible deteriorating back and has had many surgeries.  She can no longer even putt due to constant pain.  I don't know if she kept up with the rules discussion group, but she has been an official at many events in earlier years.  She is the proud bearer of a plaque for her hole in one at Pinerhurst #2 17th during a US Womens Am.  I hope she is at least lurking from time to time, and she is greatly missed.  She has played some pretty storied old courses in her time and had great perspective.  

Also, I am happy some other women have joined our little tree house, and guesst and MargretC have added much to our commentary.  Thanks for chiming in ladies.

Ran's sis-in-law Lisa,  won our Women's invitational Champion flight at our Brown County GC this summer, and by all accounts, many of our ladies were duly impressed with her game.  I imagine she lurks here from time to time.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Craig/Tommy -

Thanks. Yes, it was Patsy.

Patsy -

If you are out there, please jump in. We would love to hear from you. I hope you are doing well.

Bob

P.S. Maybe Ran could give us an update on her?

THuckaby2

I too miss Patsy - she goes WAY back to the dark ages of rec.sports.golf, if I am not mistaken... Though I never met her in person, I used to have a lot of email correspondence with her and in fact sent her some logo golf balls that she really got a kick out of, which of course made my day... Evan, if you see this, do alert her to this site if she doesn't know about it already, and anyway please do tell her I said hello.  Send me her email address also if you would be so kind.. the old one I have for her hasn't worked in a long time.

As for guesst, she is one hell of a welcome addition also, as has MargaretC been.  I kinda like NOT knowing who guesst is in real life... I figure when she's ready to tell us, she will.

Now back to the topic of this thread...what was it again?   ;D

TH

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
This site is frequented by a bunch of sexists.  Guesst declares that he is a she, posts an idealized self-portrait, and you fiends go beserk with praise.  I, on the other hand, spill my guts, intellect, and wit, and barely get an ocassional kind response.  Do we need to wonder who really runs this world?  What if Guesst is really the more poslished alter-ego of our lefty friend (who swings from the right?) Tiger B.?  Would you all be gushing over "her" then?

TEPaul

Lou:

NO!

guesst

Lou, Lou, Lou . . .

You have to understand that my posts, while perhaps not being as perceptive, witty, intellectual, and insightful as yours, do provide the *frisson of a bit of strange . . .* if we are to believe Rich Goodale.

Thus I am likened to the venerable St. Andrews, so how can the gentlemen on the board do anything but cheer me on?  

As to my *idealized self-portrait*, all I can say is, "Thank you!  I'm flattered."  :-*  I resemble that remark. ;D

You will note that the emperor had no trouble pegging me, although I've been amazed and astonished at the obtuseness of some, given the openness of my responses, and the likeness of the portrait.

I recognize that the fairer sex rules the world.  We choose which of the exciting events you golf fans get to go play, do we not?  Scottland or Rustic?  Is not keeping us satisfied so you can play whenever the opportunity arises of prime importance?  

I acknowledge that I am Queen, whether the plebs do or not.:i

Now, the topic of this post was whether this board can be an effective tool and actually have a roll in reconstruction of real clubs, or whether it is merely a sideshow.

This thread alone proves the elasticity of this board.  It can do both of these things. . . sometimes in the same thread, or even the same post.

It can be used as a forum for discussion of specific clubs that are being renovated, and over time can become an important part of that dialogue.

It can be used to train the golfers who will one day take up the *reigns* of power at their own clubs, so they will be aware once they get there that it's not only okay, but mandatory to chop down ugly misplaced trees.

And it can be used as a sideshow, to gawk, if you will, at the leggy redhead who through no fault of her own became addicted to this board in all its permutations.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2003, 02:17:41 PM by guesst »

THuckaby2

guesst:

Rest assured that many besides Tommy know your true identity, whether we, er I mean they, reveal such knowledge or not.  ;D

TH


guesst

Bless you, Tom.  I feel better already. ;)

THuckaby2

Just keep up the good work, guesst.   ;D

These guys have never been so on their toes!

TH

TEPaul

I ain't touching the first part of that post #97--but if guesst turns out to be Tiger Bernhardt or one of the other boys on here--I'm gonna be pissed. If "she" is one of the regular jokers on here that'll require they suffer through two dozen session with Dr Katz hanging from the ceiling by their toes and in a straight jacket!!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is Guesst the newest manifestation of gyrogolf?  Please, please, say it isn't so!  I rather fantasize that "she" is the peerless Ms. Coulter.

guesst

No, Lou ... but you made me laugh!   ;D

In my political leanings, I do indeed resemble Ms. Coulter.

The picture I post here is not me, but it has been pointed out that it looks a lot like me.  I'm taller, fairer, redder, more freckled, and infinitely nicer than gyrogolf in ANY of his manifestations.  

But gyro and I do evidently have some things in common.  Judging from his posts on this board, and mine, we are both fairly verbose, although I like to think that I think before I spout.  We also seem to both enjoy a bit of verbal ping pong.

We also have our differences.  I suspect he often posts for the amusement of causing disent, while my fondest wish is to bring us all together . . . in understanding, if not in agreement.  He also used to play golf a lot better than me, although there is some doubt as to whether or not this is still true, given his desertion of Our Game this past year or so.

I am not he, but (and I'll tell you this in secret), I suspect he dreams about me.  :-*

Mashie1

Ain't the internet great?? ::)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
guesst- as George Clooney tells Catherine Z-J in their latest movie, "you fascinate me".  You could be the Mad Armenian's meaningful other, but her sympathies are more with Hillary than with Ann.  No, I suspect that you really are a he pretending to be a she just to pull our chain.  In any event, this thread is proof that GCA.com is a side show, with an ocassional delve into golf architecture.  BTW, what is your favorite course and why?  Do you like firm and fast?  
Where do you stand on trees on a golf course?  Are water features on an inland course for aesthetic purposes a detriment to architecture?  Is Fazio or Damian P. the anti-Christ's?  How about Rees Jones?  Should tees be flat or have irregular slopes?  Why can't all architects get into the ASGCA?  What do you think of nematodes?  Was Muirhead a mad genious or just mad?

guesst

Oooh, Lou!  I'm flattered that you are interested in my little ol' opinion on so many varied subjects.  I assume the fascination will wane after you read this post.  The mystery will be gone . . .

I don't pretend to be an expert, but I'll tell you what I like.  Perhaps that will convince you I'm no short Armenian, but a willowy Scott.  

I'll take your questions in order, so as not to confuse you.  ;)

I haven't seen my favorite course yet, but I can tell you what I have seen that I like and am fond of.

For the pull of the past, there are three courses that hold a place in my heart.  I have to love Indian Springs first, if not best, as it was the first course I ever played some 25 years ago.  I doubt it would appeal to any of the readers here, but the sagebrush is spectacular.  My other favorites in this category include the Ocean Course at Olympic and Pebble Beach of the old days.  I hope the ocean is kind to Olympic, and leaves that gem alone for awhile.  I hope to have the opportunity to play it often.

In Tahoe, I like Incline Village, and Coyote Point put my knickers in a bit of a twist, as well.  The natural style of these courses, the way they blend into their surrounding landscape (which is quite grand and admittedly increases their appeal), and the many surprising holes - where shots over ravines and special hikes up to the black tees (which I didn't play, but did climb up to see) made for memorable golf.  There isn't much of the false in either of these courses.  I liked the way they lay on the land, although it would've made walking difficult.

I loved every course I saw in Maui.  I couldn't help it.  My *architectural eye* was overwhelmed by the overall joy of being there . . . I would've been happy to play in a sand box until time to go home.  Although I'm not sure I care for that maddening make-your-shot-go-sideways grass . . . which way is West?  Next time I promise to be more discerning.

I'm afraid I'm exceeding my bandwidth allotment.  Suffice it to say that I have not been to many of the courses I need to see.  Books and pictures tell a part of the story . . . enough to make my want list, but not enough to lay claim to any knowledge.  My education is incomplete, although I've been fortunate to see more courses than most novices.  To date I've seen more courses that I don't like than courses that I do . . . and I haven't seen my favorite yet.  I'll be sure to fill you in when I do.  

Of course I like my tracks firm and fast.    ;)

How else can I hope to keep up with you guys who can blast a tee shot 250 plus?  I have to hope the ball will run.  That's one of the reasons I want to go to Scotland.  I know, petty. When the big guys get up and swing away, only to find their ball skipping and bouncing and jumping the green to bounce off the cart path on the other side, I'll go hunt for the ball, but I'm smiling.  I confess to a small competitive streak.  ;D

Where do I stand on trees?  Although I've seen a few fellows standing on trees trying to hit without taking a drop, I myself try to stay away from them.  Fewer trees, please.  I hate them in the middle of the fairway, where they serve to limit the options.  I hate scraggly half dead trees, be they oak, juniper, or pine.  Trees look best in a forest, or on courses that are in a forest.  As a generalization, half the courses I've seen would be better with half the trees.  

It must be difficult to create water features that work.  I like water when it belongs, but it usually doesn't, unfortunately.  One of the courses in Hawaii has a large pond - a lake really - next to no. 10.  It was just right.  I think it was there first, although I don't know that.  I'd love a hole built around a real live waterfall on a mountain course, although I've only seen that in my head.  While the creeks and miniature ponds in Vegas do give an impression of coolness, which is appreciated, they are for the most part not very appealing visually (although if it's hot enough, I will wade in after balls). ;)    

Sadly, I've seen some natural water features recently that were horrible, architecturally speaking.  Running water meandered seemingly at random across and along the fairway, diagonally on one, perpendicular on the next, looking not so much like a hazard as an accident.

Because I do everything the Emperor tells me to, I have to say that Fazio is the anti-Christ.  But, to tell the truth, I find it extreme to villianize any  architect.  From what I've seen, their work varies, and is not only theirs, but their teams, and even moreso, the owners.  They generally try to do what they are hired to do.  I'm pretty sure Mr. Wynn had a very clear picture of what he wanted at Shadow Creek.  Fazio was, I imagine, the conduit and a means to the end.  Why attack the man for doing his job?  I guess that's why he gets the big money.

As I know from my own attempts at creation, if one works at creating something new and original one is bound to eventually make some hideous choices, choices that, though they didn't seem bad at the time, do not hold up well.  Isn't that a part of the learning process?  Unfortunately, golf courses are much bigger than canvasses, and cannot be tucked away under the bed or painted over - at least not very easily.

I guess I'm just bothered that a few *heads* get all the honor and/or blame, while many *hands* do the work with no recognition at all.  In the end, isn't it the artist on the bulldozer that makes the true difference between a bunker with exciting lines that fits the place and one that is nothing but a marring of the land?  That, at least, has been my impression at the courses I've visited that were under construction.

I like flat tees.  I like irregular greens, with contours that can be used to your advantage, but which will be a disadvantage if not well-used.  I like it when the women's tees are placed in such a way as to make the course more playable and interesting . . . not just shorter.  I like to walk.

I have no idea why all architects can't get into the ASGCA.  If I were going to take a stab, I'd guess politics.  

Nematodes might be cute for a pet, but I recently saw a relatively new course that was so riddled it looked like a jigsaw puzzle.  But I'm no agronomist; it may have been some sort of fungi.  

As to Muirhead, that's a new post.  This one is already running way too long, as anyone who wades through it will attest.  I will just promise you that one of these days I will start a thread comparing Muirhead to the Mad Composer of the Renaissance.  Gesualdo; a prince who killed his wife and uncle in a fit of passion and who went on to write music so innovative his peers thought him mad.  It is now considered difficult, but many find it incredibly haunting and beautiful.  

Lou, don't ask if you don't want to know.  I will answer any question you put before me, to the best of my meager ability.  If it is clear to all  that I am indeed what I claim to be, and the quiz is over, may I be excused?  ;)

I have some reading to catch up on . . . Back to the boards.  

I reserve my right to exercise every woman's prerogative.  I may change my mind about anything at any time.  :-*
« Last Edit: September 13, 2003, 05:27:01 AM by guesst »