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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I think one must take some risks in order to gain anything of value.GCA.com is unique.Ask your questions here and you access a world of opinion.Some of this is good;some bad.Take the good;leave the bad.
    At my club i can hardly get an engaging architectural interchange going.There are not that many interested or willing to change.Here there are many eyes looking.


  Here is one example.We had an outing at our club that was made up of GCA invitees.As we approached our #12 hole i asked Kelly Blake Moran how we might answer the view that removing some trees would "make the hole too easy".He offered a creative and simple idea about maintaining the area as fairway.
   If we had not responded to someone's request to put an outing together i would not have received this little nugget.Of course Kelly is a pro but the genesis of  the input was a GCA thread.Nothing ventured;nothing gained.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

redanman:

What I need is not to go back to Scotland but to hear less of this pithy crap from you! If you don't like what I quote and write then just don't f...ing read it!  ;)

THuckaby2

Sure, but those are the exception, not the rule.  And one can easily skim through those... not that I'd ever do that, no way....  ;)

It just seems to me that in these "serious/pure/completely about architecture/gonna change the world" threads, the posts are pretty damn good.

And if this is what one is into, it's so easy to figure which Topics to read and which not to bother with... well...

I don't see any problem here.

The good FAR outweighs the bad.

TH

TEPaul

JakaB said to Dave Miller;

"...that being said..I stand behind every statement you quoted and implore you to prove one thought wrong or out of place..."

Barney:

You're like a guy saying that the world is flat and somebody needs to prove to you otherwise! On the next real clear day just get up in a real tall building and you might notice the Earth's curvature!

TEPaul

redanman:

I'm not in the slightest bit interested in your craving for succinctness or your sleeping habits. I repeat--if you don't like what I quote, write or say then just don't f...ing read it!  :)

JakaB

Tom,

no, no, no, No....My thoughts yesturday were exactly the type of critique we need on any subject...the truth as I see it with no regard for how it may effect my future status or access.   I simply stated a few reasons I think GCA is a sideshow and stand willing to back each and everyone of them up with facts if questioned.

Dave's post was exactly what we have way too much of on this site....A big ole suck up to the party line dismissing someone elses opinion by calling them names....no substance...nothing fresh...just another feeble attempt to win the heart of some member somewhere else he wants to be comped....I can see it now...Dave to host.."I love the look of your bunkers and your green complexes are so subtle...isn't that JakaB an idiot....oh you don't have to pick up the check...thanks."

Mike_Sweeney


Dave's post was exactly what we have way too much of on this site....A big ole suck up to the party line dismissing someone elses opinion by calling them names....no substance...nothing fresh...just another feeble attempt to win the heart of some member somewhere else he wants to be comped....I can see it now...Dave to host.."I love the look of your bunkers and your green complexes are so subtle...isn't that JakaB an idiot....oh you don't have to pick up the check...thanks."

Barney,

How was your post any different? You took the anti-party line with no substance...nothing fresh... After eight years of Jesuit training, I was taught how to make a statement of opinion and substantiate it with facts. Stop with the blanket negative statements unless you are going to be specific and back it up. If you don't know how, you can contact my English teacher Dutchy Doyle at St. Joe's Prep http://www.sjprep.org ::)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
no, no, no, No....My thoughts yesturday were exactly the type of critique we need on any subject...the truth as I see it with no regard for how it may effect my future status or access.   I simply stated a few reasons I think GCA is a sideshow and stand willing to back each and everyone of them up with facts if questioned.

The key words in this post are "the truth as I see it" and "I think".

Just because that's the way you see it doesn't mean it's true. For all the voluminous debate we have had over facts & objectivity, I am still amazed at the number of people who don't seem to understand what is simply their opinion.

The good does indeed FAR outweigh the bad.

Tom P's posts are not too long.

The biggest problem that I see is people who object to the poster & not the post. Take a deep breath before posting.

P.S. Great post Mike Sweeney.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 10:50:20 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom Paul:

I enjoyed your post and agree with your key points.

It is true that most lay people here don't know much about things like course construction, drainage, engineering matters, etc. But, that doesn't mean GCA can't be a valuable resource for people in the industry looking for honest feedback about both industry issues and specific courses/projects.

Where else are you going to get candor?

JakaB:

I'm not inclined to call you an idiot, but I would like to see you expand on your comment about people having an "agenda". Can you share what you mean by this? Specifically, are there ever discussions - on any topic - where people don't have an "agenda"? Don't people always try to advance one view or another?



Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
John Cavanaugh, You are certainly entitled to keep harping on your cynical theme that most participants here have "biases".  But, let's look at your greivances one by one...

Quote
The collective GCA.com is a sideshow...it is...

driven by agendas that promote individual tastes and homerism....

What is the purpose of discussion group if we aren't interested in exchanging our views about our 'individual tastes'?  A productive conversation couldn't happen without two or more people exchanging their individual tastes and respecting their opinions.  And, I always thought of 'homerism' as somehow promoting or holding what you are most familiar with from around your homebase as what you are proud of.  I'm a homer for Lawsonia; so what? ::)  I can share my individual tastes on GCA about why I like the course so much, and am darn happy to do so. :P  

Quote
a forum to take out personal vendettas against architects and owners with complete disregard for the true merits of the course...

WE long time GCA participants probably know you mean folks like Tommy who you can get a rise out of at the drop of the names Fazio or Rees.  But, 'personal vendetta' is a bit overstated in my view.  Sometimes Tommy and others make biting characterizations of certain architects, calling them the devil's agent and all that.  But surely you can't help but know that is their attempt at humorously calling attention to their own admitted bias and contrast their tastes with the target archies, in a sarcastic way.  In order to run a good vendetta, you have to have been wronged in some way and you have to have some means to ruin someone who you perceive harmed you.  I don't think anyone who posts here can ruin any of the architects they rail against, nor have they been harmed by any of them.  When they do rail against certain architects work, I find they usually cite examples of what they don't like about it.  What are the "true merits"?  Who decides what true merits are?  It is all subjective. :)

Quote
a soap box for wanna be architects to attempt to spoon feed the ignorant masses (because the wanna bees get it) their own personal desires or preferences...

Barney, do you really believe that the newbie or less frequent participants in the discussion are in any danger of having their brains washed with the 'personal preferences and desires' of the frequent posters on GCA?  Are the newbies and less frequent readers just "ignorant masses"? :-\  I think anyone that does a search engine or finds their way into a discussion as focused and obscure as golf course architecture is intelligent enough not to succumb to brain washing by ardent voices of one particular GC design style or another.  They are here to learn.  They are curious, not vulnerable! :o ;D

Quote
a somewhat effective tee time machine...

Do you mean that somehow it is wrong to participate in a shared passion through a discussion group and meet other similarly enthusiastic people that may belong to an otherwise inaccessible historic golf club, and heaven forbid, be invited by the more fortunate person to share or enjoy that treasure they are fortunate enough to have access to?  I do not have the resources to belong to a great golf club.  Many of us who participate here do not.  Yet, we have enthusiasm and desire to learn that probably far exceeds the average member of many of these great golf clubs that don't even know what they have.  I have found that the invitations I have received have often come from members who would rather invite someone to share a round with who actually appreciates the qualities of their golf course architecture over playing with members who don't get it.

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this thought has been modified so that the bandwidth may be better used to inflict preconceived notions about modern architects...

I wish you would use the band width to tell us things you LIKE about various courses you play.  Having met you, and having enjoyed being around you socially, I can't believe how surly you get about certain people's posting styles.  Heck, I support you when you call some folks out, who have gotten out of line, or misstated something.  But, as humorous of a fellow as you are in person, I just wish we'd see more of that postive humor applied to telling us what courses and experiences you have on the golf course, than holding up a mirror for others to discover their warts.  We all already know we have the warts, you know. ::) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JakaB

George,

There is no truth in architecture...nothing is perfect and nothing is flawed...its all 100% opinion and preference.  What has me so pissed off is the attempts of people on this board to try to define what is good and proper...what me and every other idiot who doesn't have their architectural eye should like.   Pick up Links magazine and see if you can read it without hearing the voices of the party line...I am strong enough or stupid enough to hold to my own opinions...but its difficult sometimes to fight off the demons.   I will never look at a picture of Tom Fazio or Rees Jones in the same way I did three years ago without first having to flush all the crap that has been shoved into my brain by this site...I need an intervention.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I must accept some responsibility for the word"sideshow".My reason for the word was a recognition of our minority status.Of course it also has a perjorative connotation of a freakshow.
   This thread itself is a common example of GCA.com.Some of it is personal interplay that seems to be common on the internet(saying things that if said inperson would get you punched out),a little of it is on topic(how can we have an impact on real courses).
   I still stand by the statement that GCA.com does add to the architectural discussion at my club and can at yours if you use it.
   It is easier however to shoot from the hip either in attacting someone or slamming
someone's architectural work

    I remember my old high school teacher telling us to put our minds in gear before we put our mouths in motion,
« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 11:03:13 AM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
JakaB:

I'm still not sure what is wrong with people here trying to define what is good and proper.

Does that hurt golf architecture? If so, how?
Tim Weiman

ForkaB

Doug

In that intervention.com promises help for "......computer addiction and other compulsive behaviors" I think we should all sign up!

Rihc

JakaB

R.j, Tim and Mayday...

Thank you so much for resonding but I have a Wolf game waiting on me so I have to run.....I will respond (if the topic is still fresh) when I return to my virtual persona later in the day....As you might notice my mood improves as golf nears...if I don't hear that every weekend.

Just remember this place is not the Breakfast Club and Tom Fazio is not the teacher...so much for happy endings.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
I will never look at a picture of Tom Fazio or Rees Jones in the same way I did three years ago without first having to flush all the crap that has been shoved into my brain by this site...

By the same token, I will never be able to watch Phil Mickelson and not think of "Fluffy McChokelstein" nor play a round of golf with Tom Huckaby and not think of "Huckies Cherries" ;D ;D

Next time you look at a pic of Rees or Faz, think of them standing there naked...perhaps that will help. ::)

Better yet;  think of their tormentor, Tommy, as standing there naked! :o :o :o
« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 11:24:23 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

THuckaby2

By the same token, I will never be able to watch Phil Mickelson and not think of "Fluffy McChokelstein" nor play a round of golf with Tom Huckaby and not think of "Huckies Cherries" ;D ;D

I'm gonna get two more cherries a scant 11 days from now... yahooooooooo!!!!!

 ;D ;D ;D

TH

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
JakaB- Have I "earned" my comp round at VN?  I am one of the few here who seems to find Fazio's and Rees Jones's work interesting and enjoyable overall.  To the extent that any of us have some influence on development, construction, and maintenance, this site adds to gca.   I suppose that the DG of this site can be thought of as a marketplace of ideas, though some of the points raised by JakaB might make it less efficient than it would be otherwise.  While nothing is perfect, some alternatives are demonstratively better than others.   This site adds value.  

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
I must accept some responsibility for the word"sideshow".

Mayday,
   For some reason, when I saw that word sideshow, I pictured JakaB walking in the tent between the bearded lady and the glass-eating freak!  :o ;D ;)

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

TEPaul

JakaB:

I love some of your posts--I really do--particularly the ones that are the most incendiary. But after all this time I still have no real idea if the things you say are, in your opinion, seriously felt by you--semi-seriously felt--or not seriously felt at all.

I hope whatever your opinions are, though, they really do tend towards the semi-serious or not serious at all side. Otherwise, you just might have a real problem, certainly a real problem with this website.

What's the big deal if someone can't stand the architecture of Rees or Tom Fazio? Why do you need to flush whatever's said or felt about him on here out of your mind every time you look at a picture of him as you said on post #38, particularly after stating in the beginning of that post;

"There is no truth in architecture...nothing is perfect and nothing is flawed...its all 100% opinion and preference."

If that's what you believe in then stick to it and don't let what others say on here to the contrary ruin your day and sour you on this website.

Most of the time it isn't what someone says, even seemingly unfairly, about Rees and Fazio or anything else particularly to do with architecture that upsets others and probably you too, in my opinion.

What upsets some on here, and probably you too, is when others don't agree with their opinions on things to do with architecture. They tend to think others are calling them idiots for the things they think which seems to make most believe that others are arrogant if they don't agree and can't reach a consensus.

The hell with consensus of opinion. It might be one of the worst things of all for the ultimate life's blood of creative and interesting golf architecture anyway. Certainly striving for consensus of opinion is a reason the whole idea of rankings and top this or that sucks!

Personally, I think George Thomas might have been the most creative of all--but what the hell--he got sick of it and went back to something he really loved--breeding and growing roses and naming them after his girlfriends to his wife's dismay. And I think Alister MacKenzie probably ultimately took the art to the highest reaches ever but I still would like to see Desmond Muirhead's ultra symbolic, super radical Stone Harbor G.C. restored to its former outrageousness.

Why? Because it was kinda neat anyway it was so incredibly bizarre but at the very least it was just about at the other end of the architectural spectrum from Alister MacKenzie's Cypress Point and that alone was significant!

Would anyone in the world agree with my firm opinion about that? Of course not--but I couldn't care less!  Don't let Golfclubatlas ruin another day for you because people on here say things you don't agree with!  

Patrick_Mucci

RJDaley,

I think that there is a difference between constructive criticism and demonizing or feeding frenzies, which fortunately, have become less frequent.

There has been a degree of inconsistency in applying "standards", universally, to all golf courses and all architects.

Tom MacWood has taken a consistent position that he would like all/most courses restored to their architectural high water marks.  Certainly, a noble goal, and a great idea.

Part of the problem with that theory is, the reality of what the membership wants.  Often it differs from what we would want.

But, certain architects are villified for not doing so, even though the club's mission statement didn't call for restoration, and other architects are given a pass, or their work overlooked, when the same situation occurs at a golf course they are working on.

You can't villify Rees Jones for not restoring Hollywood, when that was never his instructions from the club, and give Tom Doak a pass for Atlantic City, which he renovated and modernized, or C&C for their work at Riviera, which was not a restoration.  You have to apply the same criteria or standards, equally, fairly and universally, otherwise you lose your credibility.

You can't expand the praise for an architects work on a specific golf course, to universal praise, when he has disfigured another golf course, eliminating much of the original golden age architects work and left his fingerprints all over the golf course.

That reflects a lack of objectivity or a lack of intellectual honesty.

George Pazin,

You claim that all discussions are merely opinions.
That's not true.
Facts are, and will continue to be the foundation and an integral component for any valid discussion and conclusion.

It is a fact that Fazio oversaw the work at Merion.
It s a fact that Fazio oversaw the work at Pine Valley.
The conclusions regarding the outcome of that work are opinions.  Unfortunately, in many cases, opinions are rendered, absent the facts.

Brad Klein,

You have to remember, this is a forum open to everyone, not a select group of professionals or experts, and as such, much of what is posted is from amateurs or novices and much of what is posted must be filtered or eliminated to get to core issues.

You, personally, attended a get together of GCA'ers at Alpine last January.  Would you say that the level of the discussions at that get together were on a substantially higher level then those on the open forum ?

Would you say that the presentations and discussions were substantive, with clear and concise "signals" ?

Would you say that the information distributed was highly informative, and that the questions and discussions emanating from the presentations were intelligent and presented well ?

It's not perfect, but it seems to be functioning adequately.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
George Pazin,

You claim that all discussions are merely opinions.
That's not true.
Facts are, and will continue to be the foundation and an integral component for any valid discussion and conclusion.

It is a fact that Fazio oversaw the work at Merion.
It s a fact that Fazio oversaw the work at Pine Valley.
The conclusions regarding the outcome of that work are opinions.  Unfortunately, in many cases, opinions are rendered, absent the facts.

I don't want this to turn into another distraction, but I'll say this (& try to limit it to this, but I reserve the right to rebutt :)):

NEVER NEVER NEVER - not on this thread nor any other - have I said that all discussions are merely opinions. I really don't appreciate it when you tell me what I said, when it is instead your interpretation of what I said. I certainly know the difference, but others like Ham clearly don't.

On this particular thread I said:

Quote
For all the voluminous debate we have had over facts & objectivity, I am still amazed at the number of people who don't seem to understand what is simply their opinion.

There is a definite difference between this statement & the statement that all discussions are merely opinion. I'll restate what I said to Barney, that is, just because you say something is true doesn't make it true.

What I have said on many threads like this is that the most interesting discussions occur over opinions. Tom Paul & Paul Turner's endless debate over PV's heritage is interesting & entertaining to me precisely because there are facts involved, and there are interpretations of those facts.

I also agree with you that the search for facts is important & vital to any discussion. I frequently disagree with you over the interpretation of said facts, but that is much of what makes this site (& life in general) so fascinating.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mashie1

Quote
author=George Pazin

and there are interpretations of those facts.


Not to nitpick here, but isn't a fact a fact?  Therfore, would there not be only one correct interpretation of a fact?

Maybe differing interpretations of the facts is part of the problem here.

Barney's not all bad.


Fact

  n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.

A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.

Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.

A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.

Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

 Idiom:
  in (point of) fact
 In reality or in truth; actually.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
This thread has answered itself.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First