News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I was recently impressed by our club's president's openness to change .He JOKED that i was going to be given a crew for a week to cut down all the trees i wanted.I told him he made my day.
   BTW there are 3 serious posters from our club on this site;there are several lurkers as well.
   We have the benefit of a My Home Course entry on this site as well.We had a GCA outing also.
   Is GCA.com having an impact on this openness? I say yes,because the interactions on this site have increased the knowledge of the posters/lurkers so that they are communicating more effectively.
   What do you think?
AKA Mayday

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Has 'the Chairman' changed his views at all?  Haven't seen him around here lately.

GCA.com involvement amongst several is what is the key.  Just one or two aren't going to do the trick, IMO, ask Geoffrey Childs via-a-vis Yale.

JakaB

The collective GCA.com is a sideshow...it is...

driven by agendas that promote individual tastes and homerism....

a forum to take out personal vendettas against architects and owners with complete disregard for the true merits of the course...

a soap box for wanna be architects to attempt to spoon feed the ignorant masses (because the wanna bees get it) their own personal desires or preferences...

a somewhat effective tee time machine...

this thought has been modified so that the bandwidth may be better used to inflict preconceived notions about modern architects...

thats enough for now..
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 03:24:18 PM by JakaB »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
jakab,

That's a whole bunch of horsecrap.  Quite possibly the most negative and tasteless post of yours yet!


How about a list of what's good about it, or are you too focused on the negative?

geez man, take a deep breath 8)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

JakaB

more...

a forum for people who don't think par matters to lie about if par really matters..

a place for people to make excuses about their handicaps before they even tee it up at a GCA outing...and then defend the handicap system..

a reason for 14 handicappers to stereotype people who respect the game enough to practice...

an excuse to stand in the shade of your own convictions while claiming every tree is stupid...why don't you just work the ball once and shut up..

hmmm..

Mike_Sweeney

I don't often agree with mdugger, but he is dead on here. I wish I had more access to "strangers" like Ran Morrissett. The man has spent significant time on the phone and private emails with me during the selection process of picking an architect. Personally, I want more Ran's in my life.

THuckaby2


a place for people to make excuses about their handicaps before they even tee it up at a GCA outing...and then defend the handicap system..

Ouch.  That hurt.  Guilty as charged.   ;D

TH

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mayday:

I agree with the view that JakaB is being far too negative and cynical about GCA.

Our discussion group is far from perfect. On more than one occasion I've expressed my own concerns (e.g., too little industry participation, too little international participation, especially European, threads that sometime lack focus, blatant abuse of the access issue, etc).

But, there still isn't anything out there better or nearly as good.

JakaB describes our discussion as being a forum for people to take out their vendettas against architects or owners. I don't see it that way at all. Almost every major media forum covering golf architecture (e.g., network television, major magazines, etc.) lacks any discussion of substance. We may go overboard here from time to time, but at least you can find both positive and negative comments about a golf course. Don't consumers deserve that? Must every forum amount to nothing more than advertising?

No, we aren't perfect. But, there are people here who sincerely want this forum to be a valuable resource serving the best long term interests of golf architecture.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 07:36:46 PM by Tim_Weiman »
Tim Weiman

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I felt bad when Wayne Morrison took some flak for my posting of the My Home Course of Rolling Green in our locker room..In my naivete` i saw it as a wonderful pictorial on our club with cogent commentary on each hole posted on an international site for all to admire.But there were people who complained about changes he recommended.I apologize to him for this.
    My opinion of negative people is you must ignore them.Do not let them rent space in your head.Do not pay attention to them.
  I think i gave evidence of real change thru this site's influence so i am not interested in nonspecific negativity.
  It is a shame that when i see certain names on this site i do not read any of what they say.
     

  Scott

   chairman has told me he agrees with me now,but unfortunately along the way i gave up believing anything he says.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2003, 03:17:09 PM by mayday_malone »
AKA Mayday

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
A place to habitually return to where one can transfer their own personal inner hostilites while deriding others enjoyment of their personal ideas and passions about a simple game and where it is played with other similarly interested people.

Barney, instead of entertaining yourself with your pithy negative comments about the nature of discussion on this site, and criticising other folks manner of expressing themselves, why don't you entertain us with some substantantive positive observations about something like ...oh say, golf course architecture and design.  

Mayday, if it is a sideshow, then there are some pretty impressive people in the golf course design, construction and maintainace industry that can't resist viewing the bearded lady and two headed goat. ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mayday,

Well put in your post just above.

Is this one of those thankfully rare cases where the "report to moderator" button might come in handy: "Use this function to inform the moderators and administrators of an abusive or wrongly posted message."  ::)

Twitter: @Deneuchre

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 Tim Weiman
    When i see your name i think of golf in Ireland(i appreciate your comments on the courses).
    What is that famous expression"Democracy (Capitalism) is the worst form of government(economy),except for the alternative."
     I think the personal interplay on this site is unavoidable,but i only focus on the gca topics anyway and do not know another place to go for that.
AKA Mayday

JakaB

Changed it..

this site has a serious problem that a strong willed moderator could easily fix...like Pat Mucci.

Somedays I hate this damn electronic tick on my ass more than anything in my life....and my wife has told me to stop bringing it home.

Gotta think some more.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mayday,
   This topic is something I'd like to discuss at our upcoming New Mexico get together.  Pat Mucci mentioned that the same topic has been championed by Tom Paul.  I'd like to see if we could figure-out a way to make GCA a resource for greens chairmen/committees to use when considering restorations/renovations to help them make educated decisions.  Your experience at your club suggests that I can work that way (although not without issues ;))

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

JakaB

Ot Oh..I see big red momma logged on..

The question remains...Why doesn't the moderator eliminate so many of the lies and agenda driven topics...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 Brad
    I would like to see the results of your discussion.I recall one early question i asked on this site"architect on retainer?" I found the discussion helpful and the suggestions specific.Many of the threads on Flynn touch on topics of interest to me and others at my club.
   I find that asking questions seems to elicit better threads.The recent thread on "fescue" brought out differences of opinion without mudslinging.
AKA Mayday

Patrick_Mucci

Brad Swanson,

I think that the creation of another category on this site could be very helpful to those referenced.

An interactive resource center, combined with an excellent retrieval or search system.

However, time and budgetary constraints might make it difficult.

I  would think that this category would have participants who are identifiable and who earn their access to that level.

Some of the articles or white papers written by Dunlop White III are spectacular, and when combined with a concerned group of participants aiding a green chairman, board member, superintendent, etc., etc., through a discussion forum, the results would seem to be incredibly positive and beneficial.

Anything that you can do to further this concept would be appreciated.

wsmorrison

Mayday,

No worries about posting the "My Home Course" piece I wrote in the locker room.  In my naivete I didn't think anyone else besides you from our club would see the write-up.  I underestimated the growing profile of this site.  I wrote it without regard to the feelings of the membership and for my idea of who the GCA.com audience is.  All in all, I think that was the best approach no matter what the fall-out was.  Basically, a number of vocal members of the club were wondering why a relatively new member would have anything of value to say about the course architecture.  Never mind the facts (hundreds of hours studying the nearly complete set of original drawings, visiting more than 30 Flynn courses, and spending a good part of 2 years researching Flynn and his associates, and equally important the many hours spent working together with Tom Paul especially along with a host of you guys out there) a number of members have preconceived notions and basically like putting people down or stirring trouble for others for whatever aimless entertainment they derive from it.  Many of these same members are vocal about something or another, rarely is it well considered or expressed.

I think that on balance, this website is a great forum to exchange ideas and learn things from all those that contribute.  I've made a lot of new friends and met some fascinating people through this site.  Many people have contacted me and assisted us in the research process for the Flynn book Tom Paul and I are working on.  This network of enthusiasts has made our job a bit easier and more fun.  

Most of us are capable of discerning what is valuable.  Given the free expression allowed, there is bound to be some clutter but I logon several times everyday.  As Mayday says, we can always not pay attention to topics that go astray or posters that annoy us.  I hope we can accentuate the positive a bit more and eliminate the negative a bit more and perhaps we'd all be happier with the results.

GO EAGLES!

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
There's an extremely high "noise to signal ratio" on GCA which undercuts it. Far too many people go off on vendettas, take themselves too seriously, think that because they have an opinion they therefore have "gravitas" in the industry, post first impression responses that badly need editing, and are too obsessive about small details of architecture without fully appreciating the decision-making, politics and finances of the golf industry.

Having said that, or in spite of all that, there's still value in GCA that outweighs its negatives. Why else are there so many industry insiders who lurk surreptitiously without posting? It's become a good resource for people who are already inclined to think about classical, links-inspired golf and who love Bernard Darwin, the ethos of match play, greenkeeping (as opposed to golf course superintending) and such retro matters.

It's never likely to convince certain modernists, but that's less the fault of GCA than due to the close mindedness of such people. In other words, it's a Web site that is a good fount of information for those who are willing to absorb it - warts and all.

But it could be a lot stronger with more effort at self-restraint by those who post a lot. Personnally, I'd love to see frequent posters post a whole let less and wait until they have something substantive to say as opposed to merely being reactive. My sense also is that a lot of the threads are about the threads themselves and not based upon wide reading or close following of golf literature or media writing. It's like a few too many people in one room with Attention Deficit Disorder.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 07:07:24 AM by Brad Klein »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
brad...hear ,hear............
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Brad Klein said this;

"There's an extremely high "noise to signal ratio" on GCA which undercuts it, and far too many people go off on vendettas, take themselves too seriously, think that because they have an opinion they therefore have "gravitas" in the industry, post first impression responses that badly need editing, and are too obsessive about small details of architecture without fully appreciating the decision-making, politics and finances of the golf industry."

And followed with this;

"Having sad that, or in spite of all that, there's still value in GCA that outweighs its negatives. Why else are there so many industry insiders who lurk surreptitiously without posting? It's become a good resource for people who are already inclined to think about classical, links-isnpired golf and who love Bernard Darwin, the ethos of match play, greenkeeping (as opposed to golf course superintending) and such retro matters."

Those two paragraphs are sort of the meat of this entire subject to me!

While I believe that many of the things that Brad said in the first quoted paragraph are definitely true there always seems to me to be implications in remarks such as that in which some believe that golf architecture is generally reserved for those in the business only--those few on the inside--"in the know" so to speak! Sort of the great divide between the "professionals" on the one hand, and those amateurs who dabble in the subject as an avocation on the other hand.

I believe in certain areas of golf architecture such as construction, drainage, engineering matters and such that probably is the truth--to a very large extent.

But in another area--particularly the "concept" side of golf architecture--and certainly in the finished product side of it--particularly all the nuances of playability that mind-set is most definitely NOT TRUE! On that side of architecture there is no "professional cognescenti" that some in the "business" would like to think there is or would like others to think there is!

In other words, most on here, except those in the business, don't have particularly good knowledge of the construction, engineering and perhaps financial and club/member connection and necessary polilitics that go with that. But that does not mean at all that many of those on here that don't understand those things particularly well don't have ideas that are as valuable about architectural "concept" and the finished product as good or perhaps even better than many of those who are in the business--who are professionals!!

Why is that? I think it's simply because many on here that are very good and perhaps natural about the "concept" and finished product side of golf architecture simply don't have the restraints and drawbacks that many of those on the professional side do. In a word those who treat this as a passionate avocation are often far more adventurous and free-thinking about golf architecture and ultimately that's a very good thing--perhaps the best thing of all about Golfclubatlas.com and maybe even golf architectural thought generally!

The phenomenon of this website is it really is viewed by an apparenly impressive group of people--those in the business and perhaps in important positions in golf courses around the world. But they only look in here-they don't post. And the reasons for that are of course the real drawback to the potential of this site. The reasons they don't have been talked about many times before on here.

Which brings the subject to criticism and negativity which JakaB seems to be displaying and some seem to be on him for. JakaB's criticism and negativity doesn't concern me at all. I actually think it's a good thing.

Why? Because criticism and controversy of opinion just might be one of the greatest strengths, and certainly one of the greatest interests in all of golf architecture. MacKenzie certainly seemed to believe that. He was probably right.

In any case JakaB's type of post probably exhibits nothing much more than;

1/ A troubled man
2/ Someone who has a particular preference in golf architecture.
3/ Someone whose tongue is firmly clenched in his cheek!

Particularly in older, classic architecture but also in new construction architecture the real deal is in understanding the differences in type and style and all that goes with that--including both  created architecture but also maintenance practices! That understanding is a must in my opinion to keep the entire spectrum of the art and business and maintenance thereof from being amalgamated in various ways which the history and evolution of golf courses and their architecture should have taught us by now is the worst and most corrupting thing of all. A "one size fits all" mentality just might be the worst thing of all for golf architecture no matter which end or part of the spectrum it happens to fall on!

The real deal is in the differences in architecture and in keeping those lines of difference defined properly! And that alone is pretty rare and frankly takes a lot more education and knowledge than most know or are willing to admit! I think those who advocate that all courses should be ridded of trees are as short-sighted as those who think all courses should be planted with trees everywhere! And that doctrinaire type of attitude is as prevalent in certain areas on here as the opposite attitude of those golfers who only want to go flying around courses in carts drinking beer and running into the pretty cart girl as much as possible.

A lot of people on here do take this subject and themselves too seriously. A lot of professional architects probably do too. But this site is neither some little right field purist entity that some say it is nor is it the far more potential resource entity that some would like to see it become.

But the good news is it is controversial. It's the site that some love and some love to hate.

Both are good things! But as a much better resource for restoration architecture as well as an advocate for the return of certain styles and particularly certain necessary maintenance practices----I still have hopes for Golfclubatlas.com. It's just that so far we can't seem to figure out how to put those high hopes into effect.


Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
It is very enjoyable to read the varied cross-section of participant views and opinions on this site; from architects, designers, other industry professionals, respected journalists and individuals who really care about the game. Several of our other key employees either participate or lurk on this site. We enjoy seeing what other's opinions are while authoring under pseudonyms.


Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
The collective GCA.com is a sideshow...it is...

driven by agendas that promote individual tastes and homerism....

a forum to take out personal vendettas against architects and owners with complete disregard for the true merits of the course...

a soap box for wanna be architects to attempt to spoon feed the ignorant masses (because the wanna bees get it) their own personal desires or preferences...

a somewhat effective tee time machine...

this thought has been modified so that the bandwidth may be better used to inflict preconceived notions about modern architects...

thats enough for now..

Well, once an idiot always an idiot.  JakaB has no redeeming qualities.  On a post like his the only solution is just consider the source.  'Nuff said.

THuckaby2

The cool thing about this discussion group is there are these things called Topic Titles.  See, if you aren't interested in a topic, it's usually right there in the title... If you don't care that Warren Zevon died or what the rules are gonna be at our NM outing, don't open the topic!

Thus I can't see how the "noise to signal" ratio is out of whack.  Those topics that are of interest to those in the golf industry and can result in changing the golf world for the greater good are pretty clearly titled, and to me do seem to keep on track, with little pollution.  Maybe I'm to optomistic and/or naive, I don't know.

TH

JakaB

Dave,

I agree that I am now an idiot and first reached idiot status in kindergarten when I insisted signing all papers LBJ...that being said..I stand behind every statement you quoted and implore you to prove one thought wrong or out of place...its all about the look..baby.