Is Sanford Municipal Golf Course (Sanford, NC) a Donald Ross design?

[Philip Hensley]

I started a thread recently asking for help identifying original Ross holes at Sanford Muni. They identify themselves as a Ross design and it is supposedly common knowledge that he designed the first 9 holes, after which another 9 holes were added by someone else and the original 9 holes changed dramatically.

Today at the Tufts Archives I tried finding out more information about the history of Sanford Muni. Nowhere in all the files, records, articles, etc. is there any mention of this course. One book that is purely a directory of architects and their courses did not list this as one of his courses. The Brad Klein book about Donald Ross had courses listed by state and did not list this either.

I stopped by Sanford Muni on the way back home and asked about this. They said they had no documentation that it was a Ross design, but basically everyone has always thought it was and so far no one has proven that it wasn't. The guy there did have a good point that certain holes on the course have greens that are certainly Ross-like.

I'm looking for more information if anyone has any real documentation as to Ross' involvement, if any.

[Jerry Kluger]

Some of us played it during the Dixie Cup. My understanding was that the routing was Ross but the rest of the course has none of the Ross features.

[Carl Johnson]

Off topic, sort of, but another North Carolina course, the Lake Lure (N.C.) Golf (club or course - 9 holes - municipal;) advertises it's a Ross [sign at the road, among other things], but we've looked at this before and that claim seems to be wrong.  One could search here for prior discussions on this course if one was really interested!   

[Carl Johnson]

Some of us played it during the Dixie Cup. My understanding was that the routing was Ross but the rest of the course has none of the Ross features.

Great.  Some say that Ross's genius was in the routing (not this course, but in general).  So, the real question, which we could debate forever, is how do you say, "This as Ross course?"  This is a Tillinghast course? This is a Doak course?  This is a Nicklaus course?  and so on?

[Philip Hensley]

Some of us played it during the Dixie Cup. My understanding was that the routing was Ross but the rest of the course has none of the Ross features.

If Ross really did have a connection, I am almost positive that only 9 holes existed until after his death

[Philip Hensley]

Off topic, sort of, but another North Carolina course, the Lake Lure (N.C.) Golf (club or course - 9 holes - municipal;) advertises it's a Ross [sign at the road, among other things], but we've looked at this before and that claim seems to be wrong.  One could search here for prior discussions on this course if one was really interested!   

Was not able to find anything in previous discussions that provided proof this was a Ross.

Ironically, there was a thread about a course in Sanford (Florida) where the operator sued the city because it turns out it also was not a Ross course, as they claimed.

[Carl Johnson]

Off topic, sort of, but another North Carolina course, the Lake Lure (N.C.) Golf (club or course - 9 holes - municipal;) advertises it's a Ross [sign at the road, among other things], but we've looked at this before and that claim seems to be wrong.  One could search here for prior discussions on this course if one was really interested!    

Was not able to find anything in previous discussions that provided proof this was a Ross. . . .

Philip -- you are on point here.  The previous discussions were to the side that there was no proof it (Lake Lure) was Ross.  Sorry if I misled.

[Rees Milikin]

Off topic, sort of, but another North Carolina course, the Lake Lure (N.C.) Golf (club or course - 9 holes - municipal;) advertises it's a Ross [sign at the road, among other things], but we've looked at this before and that claim seems to be wrong.  One could search here for prior discussions on this course if one was really interested!    

Was not able to find anything in previous discussions that provided proof this was a Ross. . . .

Philip -- you are on point here.  The previous discussions were to the side that there was no proof it (Lake Lure) was Ross.  Sorry if I misled.

Pretty sure Lake Lure is a Stiles & Van Kleek and was originally supposed to be 18 holes, but only 9 were ever built.  I think there are some really good holes at Lake Lure and if all the par 3's weren't around the same length, then I would hold it in even higher regard.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19270521&id=KM1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5306,1520236&hl=en

[Philip Hensley]

Off topic, sort of, but another North Carolina course, the Lake Lure (N.C.) Golf (club or course - 9 holes - municipal;) advertises it's a Ross [sign at the road, among other things], but we've looked at this before and that claim seems to be wrong.  One could search here for prior discussions on this course if one was really interested!    

Was not able to find anything in previous discussions that provided proof this was a Ross. . . .

Philip -- you are on point here.  The previous discussions were to the side that there was no proof it (Lake Lure) was Ross.  Sorry if I misled.

Gotcha. My comment about not being able to find proof was regarding Sanford golf course.

[Carl Johnson]

Off topic, sort of, but another North Carolina course, the Lake Lure (N.C.) Golf (club or course - 9 holes - municipal;) advertises it's a Ross [sign at the road, among other things], but we've looked at this before and that claim seems to be wrong.  One could search here for prior discussions on this course if one was really interested!    

Was not able to find anything in previous discussions that provided proof this was a Ross. . . .

Philip -- you are on point here.  The previous discussions were to the side that there was no proof it (Lake Lure) was Ross.  Sorry if I misled.

Pretty sure Lake Lure is a Stiles & Van Kleek and was originally supposed to be 18 holes, but only 9 were ever built.  I think there are some really good holes at Lake Lure and if all the par 3's weren't around the same length, then I would hold it in even higher regard.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19270521&id=KM1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=q1QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5306,1520236&hl=en

Incidentally, several years ago I asked at the Lake Lure Golf Course "club house" if they had any records relating to the course being a Ross design.  The lady working the shop said she thought there were none, but they were making the claim because someone once said it "looked like a Ross."  I think that's often said about Stiles & Van Kleek courses, isn't it?

[Allan Long]

When I lived in the area, I was curious about the same thing and did some research as well. The club had nothing nor did Tufts Archives. I even tried the town archives and found nothing either. With all the Ross involvement in the area (at well-known courses as well as little-known courses like Richmond Pines) you would think there would be some documentation somewhere by someone. But, with no documentation anywhere I find it hard to believe that Ross was involved there. No mention in either the Klein book, Ross' Golf Has Never Failed Me, or the Donald Ross Society also makes the claim seem inaccurate.

[Philip Hensley]

If it's not a Ross, the next question would be who actually did design it?

[Brad Klein]

I'm not sure where the myth of 600 Ross courses started, though as I recall it was encoded in his NYT obituary. That leaves 198 ghost-Ross layouts out there. Good luck proving it wasn't. You can only establish it was, and there's no evidence anywhere for that in the case of Sanford, NC.

[Philip Hensley]

I did research over the winter by looking up the local newspaper from the time the project was announced to when the course opened. Not a single mention of Donald Ross.

[Jerry Kluger]

No proof of Ross and Sanford Muni.  Wilmington Muni is a Ross course and they recently spent quite a bit of money restoring greens and surrounds which made it a bargain and a heck of a course.  With some more money it could really be exceptional.

[Rick Shefchik]

Incidentally, several years ago I asked at the Lake Lure Golf Course "club house" if they had any records relating to the course being a Ross design.  The lady working the shop said she thought there were none, but they were making the claim because someone once said it "looked like a Ross."  I think that's often said about Stiles & Van Kleek courses, isn't it?

There's a similar situation at the Cloquet Country Club in Minnesota. They've claimed for years that the first nine holes were designed by Ross, assuming he stopped off there for a couple of hours on his way to or from redesigning Northland Country Club in Duluth in the early 1920s. I have always doubted that, as I never saw any proof Ross was in Cloquet or drew up a design for the course. And, of course, it is not listed among his designs in the Tufts archives.


A few years ago I was contacted by someone at Cloquet C.C. asking me if I had any evidence that Ross designed their course. Setting aside my amusement, I asked the guy why they thought CCC was a Ross. He said some old-timers apparently once stated that a guy with a Scottish name or accent had been there and laid out a routing. That was it. Seems more likely that it could have been William Watson, who designed Ridgeview Country Club in Duluth at around that time.


I suggested the club do a search of local newspapers from the early '20s and see what they could find. I haven't heard from them since, but they still call the course a Ross. At this point, it seems that the burden of proof falls on anyone who doubts a course's claimed designer.

[A.G._Crockett]

No proof of Ross and Sanford Muni.  Wilmington Muni is a Ross course and they recently spent quite a bit of money restoring greens and surrounds which made it a bargain and a heck of a course.  With some more money it could really be exceptional.

Jerry,
With all due respect, I don't think the Muni in lacks anything now.  I played it back in October for the first time since the Fought work was completed, and couldn't have been more impressed; I'd put it in the top 10% of true municipal courses I've ever seen.  What in particular would they DO with more money?

[Philip Hensley]

No proof of Ross and Sanford Muni.  Wilmington Muni is a Ross course and they recently spent quite a bit of money restoring greens and surrounds which made it a bargain and a heck of a course.  With some more money it could really be exceptional.

Jerry,
With all due respect, I don't think the Muni in lacks anything now.  I played it back in October for the first time since the Fought work was completed, and couldn't have been more impressed; I'd put it in the top 10% of true municipal courses I've ever seen.  What in particular would they DO with more money?

Played it 2 times in November, thought it was great. And agree that is among the best Munis I've ever played.

Plus it's the only course that Ben Cowan didn't say needed trees cut down to make it better.

[A.G._Crockett]

No proof of Ross and Sanford Muni.  Wilmington Muni is a Ross course and they recently spent quite a bit of money restoring greens and surrounds which made it a bargain and a heck of a course.  With some more money it could really be exceptional.

Jerry,
With all due respect, I don't think the Muni in lacks anything now.  I played it back in October for the first time since the Fought work was completed, and couldn't have been more impressed; I'd put it in the top 10% of true municipal courses I've ever seen.  What in particular would they DO with more money?

Played it 2 times in November, thought it was great. And agree that is among the best Munis I've ever played.

Plus it's the only course that Ben Cowan didn't say needed trees cut down to make it better.

If you hit a tree at the Muni, you have hit a REALLY bad shot! 

The city Rec Dept did a great job in the process leading up to the work, and the people that I know in Wilmington said that John Fought was there constantly throughout the project.  It's good to see city government apparently get it right, and at an affordable cost.

[A.G._Crockett]

Just to revisit this topic, I played in a tournament at Sanford GC about 3 weeks ago.  They don't list Ross on the scorecard, but his name is all over the clubhouse and all over their website.  They also attribute the clubhouse design to Ross, btw.

Like others, I haven't been able to find Sanford listed anywhere as a Ross design.  In all honesty, I didn't see anything on the front 9 that made me feel especially inclined either way.  Very pleasant place to play, very reasonably priced, and in very good condition, but nothing about it that screams that it is, or isn't, Ross.

The question was asked earlier in the thread, but you wonder whom else could have been involved.  It's just 30 miles from Pinehurst to the Sanford GC, and it was built in 1934 as a New Deal works project.  Which sure sounds like a 9 hole Ross routing...

So the bottom line is we'll never know, and Sanford, like lots of other places can claim anything they wish.  And they could be right!

[Tyler Kearns]

very reasonably priced

That's quite an understatement!! We played Sanford as a warm-up round to the Dixie Cup in Pinehurst a few years ago and the green fee was $14.


TK

[A.G._Crockett]

very reasonably priced

That's quite an understatement!! We played Sanford as a warm-up round to the Dixie Cup in Pinehurst a few years ago and the green fee was $14.


TK

You're right; it WAS an understatement!  I think the senior twilight walking rate on weekdays is $7.  It would be reasonably priced at three or four times that!

[Jon Wiggett]

very reasonably priced

That's quite an understatement!! We played Sanford as a warm-up round to the Dixie Cup in Pinehurst a few years ago and the green fee was $14.


TK

You're right; it WAS an understatement!  I think the senior twilight walking rate on weekdays is $7.  It would be reasonably priced at three or four times that!

It is nice to see a course charging what they feel to be a fair price for what is offered rather than the maximum price that they feel the market will allow 

[A.G._Crockett]

Jon,
It's probably a little of both.  Sanford is 30 minutes from Pinehurst, 15 minutes from Tobacco Rd., and within an hour's drive from at least 15-20 reasonably priced semi-private or daily fee courses in the Triangle that most golfers would view as better courses anyway.  If Sanford went much higher with their fees, it would likely cost them money; too many other affordable options nearby.

[Tom Fagerli]

Incidentally, several years ago I asked at the Lake Lure Golf Course "club house" if they had any records relating to the course being a Ross design.  The lady working the shop said she thought there were none, but they were making the claim because someone once said it "looked like a Ross."  I think that's often said about Stiles & Van Kleek courses, isn't it?

There's a similar situation at the Cloquet Country Club in Minnesota. They've claimed for years that the first nine holes were designed by Ross, assuming he stopped off there for a couple of hours on his way to or from redesigning Northland Country Club in Duluth in the early 1920s. I have always doubted that, as I never saw any proof Ross was in Cloquet or drew up a design for the course. And, of course, it is not listed among his designs in the Tufts archives.


A few years ago I was contacted by someone at Cloquet C.C. asking me if I had any evidence that Ross designed their course. Setting aside my amusement, I asked the guy why they thought CCC was a Ross. He said some old-timers apparently once stated that a guy with a Scottish name or accent had been there and laid out a routing. That was it. Seems more likely that it could have been William Watson, who designed Ridgeview Country Club in Duluth at around that time.


I suggested the club do a search of local newspapers from the early '20s and see what they could find. I haven't heard from them since, but they still call the course a Ross. At this point, it seems that the burden of proof falls on anyone who doubts a course's claimed designer.

Rick- Cloquet has a Frank Lloyd Wright gas station though! CCC's original nine was some kind of fun in our younger years.  Probably not Ross but a great nine.