[Mike Hendren]

I like quirk, perhaps too much.

While I can't fathom anyone here arguing against it, I can't help but wonder:

Do mid-to-high handicappers like quirk because it obfuscates our lack of talent?  In other words, does it provide us with a ready excuse to try something unique without being embarrased by the consequences that might follow?  Isn't it easier to hide a poor game on a quirky golf course?  

Do we like it because it is visually stimulating and photographs nicely?

Isn't quirk easier to critique?  In other words,  isn't it more "gettable?"

Doesn't its discussion enhance one's credibility on this site?

In other words, is quirk the golf architecture enthusiast's crutch?

Damn, I love quirk.

Bogey

[Jim Hoak]

Michael--Can you define quirk?  Or is it like Potter Stewart said of pornography, "I know it when I see it."

[Peter Pallotta]

Bogey - I've never been a particular fan. I suppose if you've either had too much to drink or aren't all that interested in drinking, the bartender's tattoos could be a topic of interest. Otherwise it just seems like talking when you should be drinking. And if the tattoo is a fake stick-on instead of one inked on sometime in the '80s, it's even more besides the point.
Peter

[Ian Andrew]

I've seen everything I ever hoped to see and more...
I'm no longer after principals or templates or anything well studied.
I'm after the unconventional, the almost irrational, the bits that thumb there nose at convention.
I'm always on the lookout for a new idea, not one that we already know.

I like it because it represents another small lesson in make sure you consider every possibility.
It's not a crutch ... its a novel idea.

[Mark Pavy]

Every winter, when the ground begins to soften, golf pros all around the world see in an increase in students having problems with their chipping/pitching. Is the mantra of quirk, firm and fast about the architecture or something else?

[Matt MacIver]

Is "blindness" quirk?  

I've heard many low handicappers and pros argue against a blind or hidden shot.  But if you subscribe to the "it's only blind once" camp then it isn't quirk, it's pick your line and execute. So blindness favors the better player yet they hate it...and I like it.

[Mike Hendren]

Ian, I don't see quirk as a crutch for the architect but rather the critic.  In the critic's hit-and-run world, don't you think quirk tends to cast a course in a more favorable/memorable light. 

Reflecting on my wonderful Erie Canal trip last fall, I can't help but wonder if Onondaga might be slighted in a one-and-done competition with the likes of Yahnandasis, Teugega, Glens Falls and CC of Troy just because it is far more conventional.

Does quirk sell better in the Treehouse than among the golfing public?

Bogey

[cary lichtenstein]

I always loved quirk. Makes one think and allows for the players creativity in adapting to it.

[Brent Hutto]

The Treehouse is addicted to novelty.

[Adam Clayman]

 What does a golfer's handicap has to do with their emotional response to quirk? Isn't it more directly linked to that particular golfer's experience, frequency, and, awareness level?

In recalling my first appreciation for the land's character, I called it quirk. After having had to endure the ever flat, back and forth designs, pervasive in Chicagoland, I didn't get to feel much quirk, until I went to Wisconsin.


After reading this website's initial iteration, in retrospect, I started to value some of the gca quirk I recalled from some of those flatter courses.

[Kirk Gill]

I can see someone who has a more scientific approach to the game disliking quirk, because oddity and eccentricity might get in the way of a "good shot" not being rewarded in the way that it "should." For those who are more out to have a good time and aren't necessarily as grimly tied to obtaining a particular score, quirk might provide some interest and fun, if one is so inclined to see it. If this is true, then perhaps the better player might be less forgiving of a course's quirks, and more interersested in something.......more.......fair?

[Peter Pallotta]

Almost everyone on this board will know better than me, so: if you take the top 10 or even top 20 from Golf Week's classic and modern lists, would any of you say that 'quirk' is an noticeable element in any of these courses?

Peter
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I get the impression that gca has gradually evolved away from quirk, and to one degree or another, the GA guys were against it, but didn't always have the resources to avoid it.  As time went on, it became easier to avoid, and more or less standard to stamp it out as a matter of good design, using earthmoving, etc.  Now, that its gone, except on some older, select course, some folks kind of miss it, and see it as a sign of design variety, nostalgia, whatever.

I don't define it as blindness.  Rather, its some odd earth form, bunker placement, or green contour left for the same reason the old guys left them - usually rock preventing "suitable excavation."  Also, by definition, I am not sure anyone should strive for quirk and I don't think you can create it.  IF it is a conscious design element, it will look like it and thus not be true quirk.

[Sean_A]

For me, a course almost must have some quirk (or what passes for quirk these days) for me to think very highly of a course.  Without quirk, courses can be much of muchness from a design PoV once we sort out what is what.  I will use Notts as a great example, its stretch of holes from 11-13 and 15 set the course apart as something much more special than if those were "normal" heathland holes.  That said, those holes aren't that quirky...just following where the land took the archie.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Almost everyone on this board will know better than me, so: if you take the top 10 or even top 20 from Golf Week's classic and modern lists, would any of you say that 'quirk' is an noticeable element in any of these courses?

Peter
 

NGLA?
1,2,3 are the poster children for quirk

[BCowan]

Jeff,

   I bet thee Goat has some quirk to it...  They prob don't allow raters out there...

[jeffwarne]

There's a couple of quirky holes there-#9 and #5
You can actually see the green from the tee on both holes

raters bearing $35 welcome

[Jason Topp]

I think of it as a good golf hole caused by some unique landform or other situation that led to a unique solution at the time the hole was built.

If the hole is a bad hole, quirk will not save it (1 at North Berwick).  If the hole is a good one, quirk enhances the experience by allowing you to experience a unique place rather than a golf course that could be located in many places.

[SL_Solow]

One of the things that separates our sport from others is the diversity of the playing fields.  When I played tournament tennis (poorly I might add) I would play on different surfaces.  The clubs or park were in different areas so the backdrop might change.  But every court was the same shape and had the same dimensions. The  same is true  for football fields, and basketball courts have become uniform (I remember when they were not).  Baseball parks have diversity and after the standardization of the 70's and 80's, a  revival of irregularly  shaped stadiums has drawn critical acclaim.

Golf is played over the countryside.  Quirk occurs when the land forms and routing suggest unusual holes or shots.  It can be eliminated (or manufactured) by earthmoving equipment.  I suggest the popularity of minimalist designs is a feeling that it returns the game more closely to its natural cross country roots.  If the course is viewed simply as a means to determine the most skilled player, then quirk becomes an impediment.  But while a course can provide an arena for competition, it can be much more.  I suggest in the quest to be more, the use of eccentric (quirky) features can add interest if incorporated in a natural manner.  When they appear to be included for their own sake, they fail.

[Tom_Doak]

I've seen everything I ever hoped to see and more...
I'm no longer after principals or templates or anything well studied.
I'm after the unconventional, the almost irrational, the bits that thumb there nose at convention.
I'm always on the lookout for a new idea, not one that we already know.

I like it because it represents another small lesson in make sure you consider every possibility.
It's not a crutch ... its a novel idea.

I'm with Ian.

Bogey:  screw the critics and the architects, it's the golfers that matter.  To me, a quirky feature gets them to slow down, get off auto-pilot, and really THINK about what they're doing.  All of which goes back to that line that slipped out from Mr. Dye's mouth long ago: 

"When you get those dudes thinking, they're in trouble."

I do think Pete Dye is one of the few architects who have tried to manufacture quirk, with mixed success.

[Mark_Fine]

I tend to agree with Tom and Ian, however, it all depends on how you define "quirk".  There is a big difference between quirk and goofy!  Play Rich Harvest Farms and then tell me what you think is quirk and what you think is goofy!

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, interesting that you mention Dye.  My first thought was the tiny volcano bunker behind the 6th green at The Honors.

Is there a difference between quirk and whimsy?

Bogey

[Greg Tallman]

I've seen everything I ever hoped to see and more...
I'm no longer after principals or templates or anything well studied.
I'm after the unconventional, the almost irrational, the bits that thumb there nose at convention.
I'm always on the lookout for a new idea, not one that we already know.

I like it because it represents another small lesson in make sure you consider every possibility.
It's not a crutch ... its a novel idea.

I'm with Ian.

Bogey:  screw the critics and the architects, it's the golfers that matter.  To me, a quirky feature gets them to slow down, get off auto-pilot, and really THINK about what they're doing.  All of which goes back to that line that slipped out from Mr. Dye's mouth long ago: 

"When you get those dudes thinking, they're in trouble."

I do think Pete Dye is one of the few architects who have tried to manufacture quirk, with mixed success.

And this is good?

[Garland Bayley]

I've seen everything I ever hoped to see and more...
I'm no longer after principals or templates or anything well studied.
I'm after the unconventional, the almost irrational, the bits that thumb there nose at convention.
I'm always on the lookout for a new idea, not one that we already know.

I like it because it represents another small lesson in make sure you consider every possibility.
It's not a crutch ... its a novel idea.

I'm with Ian.

Bogey:  screw the critics and the architects, it's the golfers that matter.  To me, a quirky feature gets them to slow down, get off auto-pilot, and really THINK about what they're doing.  All of which goes back to that line that slipped out from Mr. Dye's mouth long ago: 

"When you get those dudes thinking, they're in trouble."

I do think Pete Dye is one of the few architects who have tried to manufacture quirk, with mixed success.

And this is good?

You Betcha it's good. It doesn't mean get them to play slower. It means make them think. So when is thinking not good?

[Greg Tallman]

I've seen everything I ever hoped to see and more...
I'm no longer after principals or templates or anything well studied.
I'm after the unconventional, the almost irrational, the bits that thumb there nose at convention.
I'm always on the lookout for a new idea, not one that we already know.

I like it because it represents another small lesson in make sure you consider every possibility.
It's not a crutch ... its a novel idea.

I'm with Ian.

Bogey:  screw the critics and the architects, it's the golfers that matter.  To me, a quirky feature gets them to slow down, get off auto-pilot, and really THINK about what they're doing.  All of which goes back to that line that slipped out from Mr. Dye's mouth long ago: 

"When you get those dudes thinking, they're in trouble."

I do think Pete Dye is one of the few architects who have tried to manufacture quirk, with mixed success.

And this is good?

You Betcha it's good. It doesn't mean get them to play slower. It means make them think. So when is thinking not good?

I know just simple man from West Virginia but it occurs to me that protracted thought takes time and that Tom's comments were, as always, rather clear.

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