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BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2015, 03:35:01 PM »
Sean,

   A back tee is a fraction of the cost of building a new course.  Slow play has nothing to do with 7000 yard courses.  There is a group on here that wants to dictate what tees golfers play. 

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2015, 03:39:48 PM »
Sean,

   A back tee is a fraction of the cost of building a new course.  Slow play has nothing to do with 7000 yard courses.  There is a group on here that wants to dictate what tees golfers play. 

Ok. This I understand and don't completely disagree.  This is different than the incoherent rambling of the first post or the thread that was posted above.

Sometimes, less is more.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2015, 03:42:54 PM »
Sean,

   A back tee is a fraction of the cost of building a new course. 

I think he meant building and maintenance

Slow play has nothing to do with 7000 yard courses. 

I think he meant little to nothing

There is a group on here that wants to dictate what tees golfers play. 

I think he meant it is the course and its setup that should indicate what tees golfers play. I.e., factors like long forced carries, ridiculous rough on narrow fairways, etc.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2015, 03:44:15 PM »
The idea seems pretty clear to me, and I think it certainly worth exploring. The overwhelmingly conventional wisdom around here, promoted by powerhouses like Ran and Tom D and Pat M and embraced (almost unanimously) by the rest of us, is that 6500 yards not only makes for better golf courses but for cheaper and more accessible golf. Really? Does simply saying it over and over and over again make it true? Because, while I'm not in the industry at all, and while 6500 yards is long enough for me, I've read along here for years (with more than an open mind) and I have found that all the arguments/assumptions made in support of this conventional wisdom seem based more on emotion and sentiment and smug self-satisfaction than on actual hard numbers, as BCowan is at least trying to put forward. As I say, I'm all for 6500 yard courses -- but just because most of us (including the powerhouses) are getting older and shorter and would rather play NGLA doesn't make us right. (Make Pat M 40 years younger and give him the latest equipment and put him on the 1st tee of a prestigious amateur tournament and then ask him if he dislikes 7000 yard courses, or wished that all courses were 6500 yards long.) And besides all that: there is no one else here but *us*, architects and golfers alike. *Someone* must have been building and golfers must've been *playing* these 7200 yards-from-the-tips-courses for many many years before they were dubbed -- only now, in our recently enlightened age -- monstrosities.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 03:47:37 PM by PPallotta »

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2015, 03:50:55 PM »
Peter,

   Well written.  I just for the life of me can't understand why Cabot is 6800 yards?  Many of the courses in ''courses by country'' are 6700-7000 yard courses?  I recall Donald Ross making the point about don't handicap the architect.  Please lets practice what we preach.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2015, 03:51:35 PM »
Garland being able to understand BCowan doesn't surprise me at all. They are likely both from the same distant planet. :)

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2015, 04:01:03 PM »
Garland being able to understand BCowan doesn't surprise me at all. They are likely both from the same distant planet. :)

And we are in mourning for one of our dear Vulcan brethren.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2015, 04:08:47 PM »
BC - I'm not saying that I know you're *right*, but I know that having most of us yelling in your ear doesn't make you *wrong*.  I'd like to see/read one of the many industry professionals around here actually put down the numbers, *real* numbers.

If 300 (or *6,000*) acres will cost the same whether a 6500 or a 7300 yard course is being built, and if a client is going to choose hot architect X in any event (and presumably have to pay him the same to design/route the course regardless of its total length) how much more -- if anything -- does it cost to build and maintain a course that is 800 yards longer than another.

More importantly, how does this extra cost -- if any -- *necessarily* relate to higher green fees (given that we can be pretty sure the client has *started* with a price point in mind and *then* made other decisions, like choice of architect and the kind of luxury hotel/housing that he wants, and not that said client blindly gets to the very end of the process and only after the course opens  says 'Oh, oh, I have to charge *more* per round than I thought.")  

I just don't like conventional wisdom all that much, especially when the consensus seems so overwhelming and loud. It would be nice to get someone who knows what he's talking about to actually *make a legitimate case* for a certain kind of golf/golf course, hard cold numbers and all -- especially if that someone has spent much of his (past, pre-enlightened) life playing the kind of high end and expensive (and often private) courses he now decries.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 04:19:29 PM by PPallotta »

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2015, 04:13:20 PM »
Peter,

   I agree completely. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2015, 04:19:42 PM »
...
If 300 acres will cost the same whether a 6500 or a 7300 yard course is being built...

But if 300 acres are for building a 6500 yard course, then approximately 333 acres are needed for an analogous quality 7300 yard golf course.

It seems to me that you might have to add about 11% to everything. It takes 11% more time and gas to travel around the course for maintenance. It takes 11% more taxes. etc.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2015, 04:19:48 PM »
Peter,
71 of the top 100 courses on GD's list are listed at over 7,000 yards (and a good portion of them hold Pro events), w/Dye's course at French Lick tipping the 8,000 mark.

In 2003 the average length of the courses on the PGA Tour was 7,207.2, in 2006 it was 7,226.3, and in 2009 it was 7,251.3 yards.
I don't know what it is today, but let's raise it to 7,500 for arguments sake.

Tour Pros are at least 15% to 30% longer than the vast majority of players - you can do the math.  ;)      
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 04:25:47 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Andrew Bernstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2015, 04:25:52 PM »
...
If 300 acres will cost the same whether a 6500 or a 7300 yard course is being built...

But if 300 acres are for building a 6500 yard course, then approximately 333 acres are needed for an analogous quality 7300 yard golf course.

It seems to me that you might have to add about 11% to everything. It takes 11% more time and gas to travel around the course for maintenance. It takes 11% more taxes. etc.


Surely it can't be a 1 for 1 ratio, right?

Just because the back tees are 800 yards longer, that doesn't mean that the budget would be 11% higher. You're only maintaining one additional tee and its surrounds. It can also be a small tee because of the potential for limited use (compared to the middle tees). Your'e not having to mow additional fairway and green acreage. This addition has to be less expensive when considered with the overall budget.

Also, can't a champions tee be placed in tighter locations? These are "champion" golfers we're talking about. Their tee shots are likely to be more accurate, so there's less margin for error around greens or other items on the course. It may take extra acreage, but I don't believe you would need to add 11% more.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2015, 04:37:05 PM »
...
If 300 acres will cost the same whether a 6500 or a 7300 yard course is being built...

But if 300 acres are for building a 6500 yard course, then approximately 333 acres are needed for an analogous quality 7300 yard golf course.

It seems to me that you might have to add about 11% to everything. It takes 11% more time and gas to travel around the course for maintenance. It takes 11% more taxes. etc.


Surely it can't be a 1 for 1 ratio, right?

Just because the back tees are 800 yards longer, that doesn't mean that the budget would be 11% higher. You're only maintaining one additional tee and its surrounds. It can also be a small tee because of the potential for limited use (compared to the middle tees). Your'e not having to mow additional fairway and green acreage. This addition has to be less expensive when considered with the overall budget.

Also, can't a champions tee be placed in tighter locations? These are "champion" golfers we're talking about. Their tee shots are likely to be more accurate, so there's less margin for error around greens or other items on the course. It may take extra acreage, but I don't believe you would need to add 11% more.

 ::)

Will you be adding 18 additional marshals to prevent non champion golfers from using the tees? How accurate are the tee shots of non champion golfers? How much will the marshals cost?

If you are making a golf course that is asking players to hit it 11% longer, then the conservative estimate is for 11% more cost, as it ignores that it should be 11% wider. You do understand that area is in two dimensions don't you?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2015, 04:52:07 PM »
From the course perspective you also need to look at the revenue side of the equation.  I suspect 7,000 yard courses command more revenue than 6500 yard courses, all other things being equal. 

Peter Pallotta

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2015, 04:56:52 PM »
Andrew - you're probably right about that, and could probably come up with many more examples. Garland dropped in the canard about an "analogous" course (whatever *that* means -- as you can fit a course of either length in 300 acres), but even before he did I edited my post to add/reference 6,000 acres, since that seems to be a common occurance these days. At any rate, Garland and I share this one quality, i.e. that in such matters we don't know what we are talking about, and are only guessing.

Jim - yes, but there is a difference between saying that most of us don't *need* 7200 yard courses and saying that building them qualifies as one of the 7 deadly sins. (If that were the case, some of our most beloved modern day architects could be described as  Satan's minions or as demons incarnate.) But besides that: I'm a selfish person, and all I really care about is that as my son and I grow older there will *still be* golf courses around (within some kind of driving distance from my home), and that I'll be able to afford to play them. I *don't care* if they are 6500 or 7500 yards long (though as you know better than me, many in a younger generation probably will care.) Now, sure, all I need is 6500 yards -- but that ain't gonna happen just by my wishing it; so all I'm suggesting is that if this tide is ever going to turn, *someone* needs to truly step up to the plate with *concrete* cost analysis powerful enough to make it stick, and more convincing than the whines of aging golfers who, frankly, come across simply as *envious* of anyone younger than them who can play a game with which they are no longer familiar.    

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2015, 04:59:33 PM »
''If you are making a golf course that is asking players to hit it 11% longer, then the conservative estimate is for 11% more cost, as it ignores that it should be 11% wider. You do understand that area is in two dimensions don't you?''

Garland,

   I don't understand.  If the member tee is lets say 366 yards on a hole, and it's 416 from the tips.  There can be 45-50 yards of native in between.  How is the cost 11% more?


Also a 300 acre golf course, is this for houses?  Is there UN-managed wood lots?  A 7000 yard course can sit on 170 acres.  Also for the tour those total yardages are measured from the White line.  All tees are set in front of white line (shorter distances).    

Peter,

  epic post
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 05:06:24 PM by BCowan »

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2015, 05:02:13 PM »
A handful of back tees (note, you don't need one on every hole) will not add much at all to a maintenance budget especially if you view them as being there only for a small number of players. They wont receive anywhere near the same amount of wear so wont require the same levels of inputs. The extra land required and maintenance would pale in comparison to what is needed to obtain the good old GCA minimum 40 yard+ wide fairway that seems to be a measure of a courses quality.

Does a shorter course speed up play? I think of par 3's and short par 4's and how much waiting takes place on those tees as the groups in front are in range from the tee. Longer holes don't seem to create the same hold ups.

Andrew Bernstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2015, 05:04:00 PM »
Quote
Will you be adding 18 additional marshals to prevent non champion golfers from using the tees? How accurate are the tee shots of non champion golfers? How much will the marshals cost?

There has to be some element of trust here. Wouldn't one marshal/starter at #1 be able to persuade golfers towards the correct set of tees? It's not a perfect system, but it's cost-effective.

Quote
If you are making a golf course that is asking players to hit it 11% longer, then the conservative estimate is for 11% more cost, as it ignores that it should be 11% wider. You do understand that area is in two dimensions don't you?

Playing corridors have not expanded at the same rate as the course has lengthened. I'm not sure they've expanded much at all. We're only talking about one tee here, which can't be more than 15 yards x 15 yards. Like I said, there will be extra cost, but not 11% more.

Andrew Bernstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2015, 05:20:35 PM »
Peter -- Considering most older courses have lengthened (to some extent) without buying neighboring properties, we know there's not a need for a huge amount of extra land. You're never going to build a 7,500 yard course on Wannamoisett's precious few acres, but you also don't need an entire county to build a course that will challenge players that want a challenge.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2015, 05:27:22 PM »
''If you are making a golf course that is asking players to hit it 11% longer, then the conservative estimate is for 11% more cost, as it ignores that it should be 11% wider. You do understand that area is in two dimensions don't you?''

Garland,

   I don't understand.  If the member tee is lets say 366 yards on a hole, and it's 416 from the tips.  There can be 45-50 yards of native in between.  How is the cost 11% more?


Also a 300 acre golf course, is this for houses?  Is there UN-managed wood lots?  A 7000 yard course can sit on 170 acres.  Also for the tour those total yardages are measured from the White line.  All tees are set in front of white line (shorter distances).    

Peter,

  epic post

300 acre 6500 yard golf courses exist for the course only by having wide playing areas and separation between holes (unmanaged wood lots?). If you want something that compares for a 7300 yard golf course you have to expand the land. I made a conservative estimate by expanding it in one dimension only.
By sticking in the extra 800 yards with additional back tees on the same property degrades the quality of the course a bit. Are the bunkers in the right place now? Do the back tee players get the misplaced bunkers or do the forward tee players get them? etc.

So the point is you don't get the analogous quality course by having additional tees on the same land.

Obviously this point becomes more apparent if you consider the 100 acre 6500 yard course.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2015, 05:35:17 PM »
Be sure to drink your ovaltine.

Why do they call it Ovaltine? The can is round, the cup you drink it in is round. Why not Roundtine?

Gold Jerry, Gold!

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2015, 05:40:32 PM »
''If you are making a golf course that is asking players to hit it 11% longer, then the conservative estimate is for 11% more cost, as it ignores that it should be 11% wider. You do understand that area is in two dimensions don't you?''

Garland,

   I don't understand.  If the member tee is lets say 366 yards on a hole, and it's 416 from the tips.  There can be 45-50 yards of native in between.  How is the cost 11% more?


Also a 300 acre golf course, is this for houses?  Is there UN-managed wood lots?  A 7000 yard course can sit on 170 acres.  Also for the tour those total yardages are measured from the White line.  All tees are set in front of white line (shorter distances).    

Peter,

  epic post

300 acre 6500 yard golf courses exist for the course only by having wide playing areas and separation between holes (unmanaged wood lots?). If you want something that compares for a 7300 yard golf course you have to expand the land. I made a conservative estimate by expanding it in one dimension only.
By sticking in the extra 800 yards with additional back tees on the same property degrades the quality of the course a bit. Are the bunkers in the right place now? Do the back tee players get the misplaced bunkers or do the forward tee players get them? etc.

So the point is you don't get the analogous quality course by having additional tees on the same land.

Obviously this point becomes more apparent if you consider the 100 acre 6500 yard course.

Garland,

   300 acres is a ton of land.  175 acres is all that is needed for wide fairways and 7,000.  I disagree that it degrades the quality of the course for the better player at 7,000 yards.  The bunkers should be in a much better spot with a 270 yard tee shot, then playing a 6500 yards for a better player.  

   How does a good amateur hitting it 270-280 off the tee and sand wedge into every hole interact with the arch at 6500 yards?

   A 100 acre course can't really expand to 7000 yards...

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2015, 05:41:27 PM »
A handful of back tees (note, you don't need one on every hole) will not add much at all to a maintenance budget especially if you view them as being there only for a small number of players. They wont receive anywhere near the same amount of wear so wont require the same levels of inputs. The extra land required and maintenance would pale in comparison to what is needed to obtain the good old GCA minimum 40 yard+ wide fairway that seems to be a measure of a courses quality.

Does a shorter course speed up play? I think of par 3's and short par 4's and how much waiting takes place on those tees as the groups in front are in range from the tee. Longer holes don't seem to create the same hold ups.

Grant,

   excellent post, makes perfect sense to me.  You articulated it much better than I...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2015, 05:57:27 PM »
...

   How does a good amateur hitting it 270-280 off the tee and sand wedge into every hole interact with the arch at 6500 yards?

The bunkers are at 270-280 off the tee, that's how. Now you add 45 yards to every hole, and only Bubba can interact with them. This is a topic that has been discussed extensively on this web site. These elastic golf courses with multiple tees can't suit all players. Do they suit the proper set of players? Probably seldom.

   A 100 acre course can't really expand to 7000 yards...

When you get your chance to go to the British Isles and play courses that have constantly suffered a virtually shrinkage so that they have to periodically let out the seams for well over a century, then you will see it is possible. First you extend with what extra land you do have. Then you extend by making the players hit over the preceding green. Then you extend by making players hit over fairways of other holes. You get the idea. ;)


"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2015, 06:21:12 PM »
Garland,

   Did the 6500 yard course that was laid out 80-100 years ago have bunkers 275 yards out from the tee?  I didn't know they hit it 275 in 1935  ;)
   

   I don't think it is wise to increase a course that is on 100 acres to 7000 yards.  I think we are in agreement.  I shouldn't have used the word Can't. (all apologies).  Hopefully in 2019 I can make it to the Buda and you can enlighten me....

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