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BCowan

Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« on: March 01, 2015, 09:57:22 PM »
When I was a younger chap, I would overlook courses under 6700 yards, the older i get the more I'm keen to play most golden age courses and ones recommended by friends.  This notion that courses over 6500 yards make golf too expensive, I can't wrap my head around and is grossly sensationalized.  A championship tee is played by 3-10% of a golf club/CC depending on how many good players one club has.  That 3-10% can go join another club or play a public course that has those features (don't forget that revenue).  A Championship tee is usually very small and there can be native between the championship tee and the members tee, so this def. high maint. feature is def. sensationalized imo. I've worked in house at a CC in my younger days that had an aging membership that didn't build new tees, they went under for a short time (Not saying that was big reason for demise).  Then they were purchased and built new tees to attract better golfers that were younger.   Plus the idea that the SMART people have to tell golfers what tee they play is beyond annoying and fascist.  Pace of play has nothing to do with how long a course you play, utter nonsense.  A 7,000 yard championship yardage can be created on 150 acres or less.  Non Golf related things have driven the cost of golf up, and it gets overlooked time and time again.  Courses built on 150 yards or greater are cultural problems.  I feel as though golfers don't want to see fellow golfers in other fairways because they don't want to be bothered in waving high to their fellow man/woman.  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 10:23:49 PM by BCowan »

JC Jones

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Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2015, 11:03:48 PM »
Be sure to drink your ovaltine.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2015, 11:05:51 PM »
Be sure to drink your ovaltine.

jonesn' for a thread jack?  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 11:07:33 PM by BCowan »

Ron Csigo

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Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

jeffwarne

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Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2015, 11:14:11 PM »
Be sure to drink your ovaltine.

Classic
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2015, 11:19:07 PM »
I apologize for your lack of comprehension.  It is really rather simple.  I'll wait until you can supply facts to dispute my claims....  No need for decoding... 

C. Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2015, 11:28:04 PM »
Ron,

Amazing!

Ben,

But we all want to play the long ball!  Taylor Made told me I could get another 20 yards and be perfectly straight!  We need/ have to have longer courses, how else can we emulate our Tour Pros!  Besides it is more fun to have scores in the 90's.  And if a club saves money on the course, they will get the idea to build a bigger and better club house! ;D

That is one of the reasons Bethpage Black takes 5 plus hours, everyone wants to play the tips and have a slog fest.  I have teed off first and was told both times it would take over 5 hours and they are fine with that.  I was not as I had afternoon tee times.  The people I was paired with on two trips were locals that claimed it was the fasted they had ever played and we did not play fast, we also never say the group behind us except on 1 tee.

chris

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2015, 11:34:02 PM »
Ron,

Amazing!

Ben,

But we all want to play the long ball!  Taylor Made told me I could get another 20 yards and be perfectly straight!  We need/ have to have longer courses, how else can we emulate our Tour Pros!  Besides it is more fun to have scores in the 90's.  And if a club saves money on the course, they will get the idea to build a bigger and better club house! ;D

That is one of the reasons Bethpage Black takes 5 plus hours, everyone wants to play the tips and have a slog fest.  I have teed off first and was told both times it would take over 5 hours and they are fine with that.  I was not as I had afternoon tee times.  The people I was paired with on two trips were locals that claimed it was the fasted they had ever played and we did not play fast, we also never say the group behind us except on 1 tee.

chris

Chris,

   Using a US Open course like Bethpage, come on.  The red step child.  Could forced carries have anything to do with it?  Could Penal arch. have anything to do with it?  Long rough?  Public course?  I can't tell you how many 5 hour rounds I've endured on 6000 yard muni's.  Sorry, but i like having a hole challenge me with a drive and a long iron from time to time.  Nobody is forced to play a tee if they don't want to outside of tournament play. 

   

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2015, 11:37:02 PM »
Chris,

I've played Bethpage Black a couple times and from what I could see (during the very long wait to get on), the vast majority of people who play the course - probably 90% or more - don't need to be playing more than 6,500 yards.
Tim Weiman

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2015, 11:37:25 PM »


That is one of the reasons Bethpage Black takes 5 plus hours, everyone wants to play the tips and have a slog fest.  I have teed off first and was told both times it would take over 5 hours and they are fine with that.  I was not as I had afternoon tee times.  The people I was paired with on two trips were locals that claimed it was the fasted they had ever played and we did not play fast, we also never say the group behind us except on 1 tee.


Sounds to me like NYS management is the reason it takes forever to play BPB.
To tell the first group it's 5 hours to play is the height of asinine.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2015, 11:43:07 PM »


That is one of the reasons Bethpage Black takes 5 plus hours, everyone wants to play the tips and have a slog fest.  I have teed off first and was told both times it would take over 5 hours and they are fine with that.  I was not as I had afternoon tee times.  The people I was paired with on two trips were locals that claimed it was the fasted they had ever played and we did not play fast, we also never say the group behind us except on 1 tee.


Sounds to me like NYS management is the reason it takes forever to play BPB.
To tell the first group it's 5 hours to play is the height of asinine.


Jeff,

When I first played Whistlng Straits they were telling people to expect 5-6 hours. I couldn't believe the course management could do such a thing.
Tim Weiman

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2015, 11:44:45 PM »


That is one of the reasons Bethpage Black takes 5 plus hours, everyone wants to play the tips and have a slog fest.  I have teed off first and was told both times it would take over 5 hours and they are fine with that.  I was not as I had afternoon tee times.  The people I was paired with on two trips were locals that claimed it was the fasted they had ever played and we did not play fast, we also never say the group behind us except on 1 tee.


Sounds to me like NYS management is the reason it takes forever to play BPB.
To tell the first group it's 5 hours to play is the height of asinine.


I hope the Red course has a faster pace of play  ;)

Andrew Bernstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2015, 11:46:09 PM »
To play devil's advocate against some of the arguments made against Ben's original post, I pose this question:

Are longer tees dangerous to the general public? We tax cigarettes to dissuade the general public from purchasing these items because they don't seem to care that they're bad for them. They're addicted. Is the general public, which sometimes seems like a pejorative term here, addicted to longer courses? Couldn't we build a diverse set of tees and allow them to choose what is best for their game? Or are we afraid "they" will always choose wrong?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2015, 11:48:06 PM »


That is one of the reasons Bethpage Black takes 5 plus hours, everyone wants to play the tips and have a slog fest.  I have teed off first and was told both times it would take over 5 hours and they are fine with that.  I was not as I had afternoon tee times.  The people I was paired with on two trips were locals that claimed it was the fasted they had ever played and we did not play fast, we also never say the group behind us except on 1 tee.


Sounds to me like NYS management is the reason it takes forever to play BPB.
To tell the first group it's 5 hours to play is the height of asinine.


I hope the Red course has a faster pace of play  ;)

I played in the LI Open on The Red one year and was done with 36 by noon.
It also had a lot less rough then
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

C. Sturges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2015, 11:53:56 PM »
My first trip there I was blown away when the starter told me that.  The second trip, when checking in became an F-bomb fest with the two groups behind me.  They were ready to fight and the cashier lady behind the glass was dropping F-bombs.  I LOVE NYC!

It seems to be a problem because the management excepts it and the golfers except it.  The locals I played with were out there strolling around, not struggling with there game, but taking there time soaking it all in.  One gentleman who grew up playing and cadding there liked to take his time and get his moneys worth since he now had to pay the out of town fee.  The course is very playable, even though it is very long from the back tees.

The Red plays much faster, they also let groups out on it and the other courses earlier than the Black.
chris

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2015, 03:36:11 AM »
 A 7,000 yard championship yardage can be created on 150 acres or less.  Non Golf related things have driven the cost of golf up, and it gets overlooked time and time again.

7,000 yards ain't a championship yardage.

Your argument falls apart if you accept that 7500-8000 yards is a championship yardage.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 12:38:57 PM »
Ben,

Even though back tees are relatively small, they still require construction and 18 on a new project is not an insignificant line item when you consider additional tree clearing & grubbing, topsoil stripping & stockpiling, shaping, root zone mix, topsoil spreading and seeding/sodding costs.  Keeping the area between the back tee and the next set as native can reduce the need for irrigation by saving a few heads, but the irrigation pipe required to service the back tee is not reduced.  Additional cart path construction may be required as well.

Contrary to what you think, the quest for 7,000 plus yard golf courses has led to the need for more land, increasing golf course construction costs further.  New technology has given a small minority the ability to hit the ball further, straight and offline.

Longer courses can lend themselves to longer rounds, especially when people are tempted by their ego to play the very back tees.  The major problem is if the back tees are those closest to the preceding green, requiring the vast majority of players to add many hundreds of extra yards to their journey - and that most definitely increases the length of a round.  If possible, the middle tee should be located in close proximity to the previous green to limit the walk for the majority.

I don't have a problem with clubs maintaining a championship tee in the 7,000 yard range, but they are fooling themselves if they don't think it comes with additional costs that are borne by the entire membership and not the 2-3% who would use them with any frequency.  The tee still needs to be mown, irrigated, fertilized etc.

TK

 

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2015, 01:40:01 PM »
Even though back tees are relatively small, they still require construction and 18 on a new project is not an insignificant line item when you consider additional tree clearing & grubbing, topsoil stripping & stockpiling, shaping, root zone mix, topsoil spreading and seeding/sodding costs.  Keeping the area between the back tee and the next set as native can reduce the need for irrigation by saving a few heads, but the irrigation pipe required to service the back tee is not reduced.  Additional cart path construction may be required as well.

It is rather insignificant if you factor in what investors are paying for land.  Cart path construction is not needed unless very high end course.  When you are talking about a good deal of courses being done for $10 million, and tip tee construction is a result of maybe $1 more a round if u depreciate it.  The amount the dining room and clubhouse use, nobody does cost benefit analysis for that and makes adjustments.  I believe TD doesn't build USGS spec greens, which saves a lot more money imo then building small tip tee boxes which don't have to be maint. to high standard if its a low budget course.  

Contrary to what you think, the quest for 7,000 plus yard golf courses has led to the need for more land, increasing golf course construction costs further.  New technology has given a small minority the ability to hit the ball further, straight and offline.

That is utter nonsense.  RE housing tracks have lead to larger parcels of land.  Also the need for seclusion in between holes.  Forget technology, that has been beaten to death on here.  It isn't going away either.

Longer courses can lend themselves to longer rounds, especially when people are tempted by their ego to play the very back tees.  The major problem is if the back tees are those closest to the preceding green, requiring the vast majority of players to add many hundreds of extra yards to their journey - and that most definitely increases the length of a round.  If possible, the middle tee should be located in close proximity to the previous green to limit the walk for the majority.

Forced carries, lack of consideration for fellow golfers, lack of ready golf, plum bobbing, and putzing around have lead to slow rounds.  I play in 4 somes on my home track which is 7000 yards from the tips and people finish in under 4 hours.  walking an extra 30 paces is nothing compared to a 2 min pre shot routine.  This goes back to controlling people who we deem unfit to make decisions for themselves.  

I don't have a problem with clubs maintaining a championship tee in the 7,000 yard range, but they are fooling themselves if they don't think it comes with additional costs that are borne by the entire membership and not the 2-3% who would use them with any frequency.  The tee still needs to be mown, irrigated, fertilized etc.

Public and Private have them for they possibly deem them to attract 3-10% who want to play them.  So they have to determine if its cost effective, definitely public courses do.  At the 6700 yard course i grew up at, 10-15% played the tips.  If 3% or less us the tees, cost needs to come down in maint. assuming we are talking about public course with smaller means.  If less than 3% use it and it is costing more than revenue, a club/course can always let it go native.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 01:44:59 PM by BCowan »

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2015, 02:49:24 PM »
I love reading BCowan's threads  to challenge myself to see if I can figure out if I can possibly comprehend one of them in any way. Still unsuccessful at this point, but its coming soon, I can feel it..... ;D

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2015, 02:53:40 PM »
Water and slow play won today.  Don't fight it.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 02:58:47 PM »
Sean, they make a lot more sense when you remember that Ben fundamentally believes that literacy is a sign of stupidity.

I've bookmarked this thread so that I can bump it in 2026.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2015, 03:06:17 PM »
I bet multiple, individual tee boxes are the biggest time-sink for maintenance on modern courses.

Sorry for bumping this thread.

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 03:08:03 PM »
Sean, they make a lot more sense when you remember that Ben fundamentally believes that literacy is a sign of stupidity.

I've bookmarked this thread so that I can bump it in 2026.

No love for this thread, fellas?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60614.0.html
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

BCowan

Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2015, 03:13:16 PM »
I love reading BCowan's threads  to challenge myself to see if I can figure out if I can possibly comprehend one of them in any way. Still unsuccessful at this point, but its coming soon, I can feel it..... ;D

Sean,

   Lets make broad generalizations.  Please cite a sentence, and let me break down for you.

The rest of you thread jackers, have you ever cut a green before or worked maint at a golf course?  Jason's inflation golf ball thread as well as many others I have stored. 

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maintaining a championship tee over 6500 yards
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2015, 03:29:00 PM »
I love reading BCowan's threads  to challenge myself to see if I can figure out if I can possibly comprehend one of them in any way. Still unsuccessful at this point, but its coming soon, I can feel it..... ;D

Sean,

   Lets make broad generalizations.  Please cite a sentence, and let me break down for you.

The rest of you thread jackers, have you ever cut a green before or worked maint at a golf course?  Jason's inflation golf ball thread as well as many others I have stored. 


If you had to consolidate your point of the first post of this thread in only 3 sentences, what would you be trying to convey? Lets start with that.