CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Sean_A]

Tom

Its interesting that Kington, Littlestone and Stoneham don't appear on Ran's, Oliver's or Darius' lists of courses to see.  You don't seem to have much influence 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Its interesting that Kington, Littlestone and Stoneham don't appear on Ran's, Oliver's or Darius' lists of courses to see.  You don't seem to have much influence  

Clearly you've had more influence [in the UK] on me than I've had on them.

Sadly, I suspect a lot of courses don't get on those guys' radar until some architect is promoting their restoration work.

[Sean_A]

Sadly, I suspect a lot of courses don't get on those guys' radar until some architect is promoting their restoration work.

We don't get much positive archie work on courses in GB&I and even the postive stuff isn't usually met with open arms by Americans.  So far as I can tell, Pont is hitting closest to the mark, but he isn't high profile yet.  Maybe Broadstone will follow Tandridge as not exactly high profile, but at least noticed to some degree.  It just seems that Brits don't get terribly enthused by this stuff.  I think you had a small section for best reno work in the Guide, but it seems like it isn't something you are exactly championing in GB&I.

Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sadly, I suspect a lot of courses don't get on those guys' radar until some architect is promoting their restoration work.

There's some very good restoration work going on but most UK archies don't make a song and dance about it. Ken Moodie's work at Alwoodley, Moortown, and Sherwood Forest is exceptional but he doesn't shout it from the rooftops.

Dutch architects however...

 

[Paul Gray]

Sadly, I suspect a lot of courses don't get on those guys' radar until some architect is promoting their restoration work.

There's some very good restoration work going on but most UK archies don't make a song and dance about it. Ken Moodie's work at Alwoodley, Moortown, and Sherwood Forest is exceptional but he doesn't shout it from the rooftops.

Dutch architects however...

 

I happen to know Ken is involved on a consulting basis as North Hants as well. They still need more short grass around the greens but things are most definitely moving in the right direction.

On a not completely unrelated note, I waited until Christmas to receive my copy of The Confidential Guide and was pleased to see that Tom had exactly tge same marks as me for Hampshire courses, meaning he's clearly been paying attention. 

[Niall C]

Very belatedly catching up with this thread and there's a lot to take in. First off, what a beautifully produced book. There's an awful lot to commend in the book, not the least of which is the photography. I also like the fact that the course write up's are dated. It helps to give a sense of perspective. In particular the write up on Old Moray caught my eye, not only because I used to be a member, but also that it was from 1982 when it was supposedly known as the tightest course in Scotland which is not something you could accuse it of being now but just shows how courses change over time.

The writing generally is of a very high quality as you would expect even if you don't always agree with the assessment of the individual courses. If I had any quibbles they would be that the design accreditations are a bit ropey but appreciate that's not what the book is about and should have no bearing on the assessment of the course in any case. What disappointed me a bit more if I'm being honest was the selection of Scottish courses that were included. Or to be more exact, the courses that were missed out. A quick glance at the maps show that the authors rarely seem willing to leave the coastline. Yes it's true, the best courses in Scotland are links, however many of the courses featured are not links but do have a sea view. For example Royal Tarlair is a nice wee course with one terrific hole but about a mile away you have another course (Duff House Royal) that doesn't have a sea view but is much, much better and infinitely more interesting but isn't included in the guide.

Not sure that Tom will ever want to revisit the book with a further edition but if he's ever mad enough to do that then I hope that Tom and his colleagues look to get off the beaten track a bit more and enter the dark heart of Scotland !!

Niall   

[Eoin Riddell]

Just to confirm the photo of Foxy was taken with a drone. A friend had one and I wanted to get a few pictures of the work we had done to the 3rd hole fairway, it was done of my own back and the club had no problem when I had offered it to Tom, I was delighted it was used.
Thank you Tom for my copy:-)

[Tom_Doak]

What disappointed me a bit more if I'm being honest was the selection of Scottish courses that were included. Or to be more exact, the courses that were missed out. A quick glance at the maps show that the authors rarely seem willing to leave the coastline. Yes it's true, the best courses in Scotland are links, however many of the courses featured are not links but do have a sea view. For example Royal Tarlair is a nice wee course with one terrific hole but about a mile away you have another course (Duff House Royal) that doesn't have a sea view but is much, much better and infinitely more interesting but isn't included in the guide.

Not sure that Tom will ever want to revisit the book with a further edition but if he's ever mad enough to do that then I hope that Tom and his colleagues look to get off the beaten track a bit more and enter the dark heart of Scotland !!

Niall   

Niall:

Thanks for your thoughts and honest critique.  Feedback on what is missing is most helpful.  

In fact, I have driven into both Duff House Royal [many years ago] and Ladybank [last year] while touring Scotland, and did not see anything that made me want to get out of the car and have a walk around -- I actually thought that if I reviewed the courses it would be to their detriment.  I'm sure they are well-thought-out designs but there was nothing that I could see that would excite a visitor to go there.  I've been wary of recommendations for inland golf in Scotland ever since visiting Blairgowrie in 1982, and deciding that while the Scots appreciate the odd inland course for the sake of variety, their menu of inland courses does not compare with what's to be found in other parts of the world.

That said, I did stop into Killin this summer purely by accident [road closure due to traffic accident], and Peebles which someone recommended thirty years ago, and found them to be great fun.  I am sure there are others like them [or better] but they seem to be like the proverbial needle in a haystack ... I've never found a reliable source of leads for the best of them.  The only area I have recommendations for is around Glasgow; someday I'll spend 3-4 days checking those out.

I don't know if there will ever be an update to Volume 1 -- if there is, it will probably be online -- but I am pretty confident my days of traveling to Scotland are not over, as my wife loves it there.  So, any recommendations about courses in that part of the world are welcome.

[Ally Mcintosh]

If I remember correctly, Duff House Royal is a strange one because it is very bland tee to green and then has perhaps the best shaped set of MacKenzie greens in GB&I.

[Thomas Dai]

Just to confirm the photo of Foxy was taken with a drone. A friend had one and I wanted to get a few pictures of the work we had done to the 3rd hole fairway, it was done of my own back and the club had no problem when I had offered it to Tom, I was delighted it was used.
Thank you Tom for my copy:-)

Eoin,

It's a really terrific photo of 14-Foxy. Outstanding.

Do you have more drone photos of this calibre of the course you could share with us - on a separate thread maybe?

Atb

[Ryan Coles]

What disappointed me a bit more if I'm being honest was the selection of Scottish courses that were included. Or to be more exact, the courses that were missed out. A quick glance at the maps show that the authors rarely seem willing to leave the coastline. Yes it's true, the best courses in Scotland are links, however many of the courses featured are not links but do have a sea view. For example Royal Tarlair is a nice wee course with one terrific hole but about a mile away you have another course (Duff House Royal) that doesn't have a sea view but is much, much better and infinitely more interesting but isn't included in the guide.

Not sure that Tom will ever want to revisit the book with a further edition but if he's ever mad enough to do that then I hope that Tom and his colleagues look to get off the beaten track a bit more and enter the dark heart of Scotland !!

Niall   

Niall:

Thanks for your thoughts and honest critique.  Feedback on what is missing is most helpful.  

In fact, I have driven into both Duff House Royal [many years ago] and Ladybank [last year] while touring Scotland, and did not see anything that made me want to get out of the car and have a walk around -- I actually thought that if I reviewed the courses it would be to their detriment.  I'm sure they are well-thought-out designs but there was nothing that I could see that would excite a visitor to go there.  I've been wary of recommendations for inland golf in Scotland ever since visiting Blairgowrie in 1982, and deciding that while the Scots appreciate the odd inland course for the sake of variety, their menu of inland courses does not compare with what's to be found in other parts of the world.

That said, I did stop into Killin this summer purely by accident [road closure due to traffic accident], and Peebles which someone recommended thirty years ago, and found them to be great fun.  I am sure there are others like them [or better] but they seem to be like the proverbial needle in a haystack ... I've never found a reliable source of leads for the best of them.  The only area I have recommendations for is around Glasgow; someday I'll spend 3-4 days checking those out.

I don't know if there will ever be an update to Volume 1 -- if there is, it will probably be online -- but I am pretty confident my days of traveling to Scotland are not over, as my wife loves it there.  So, any recommendations about courses in that part of the world are welcome.

Didn't you take a similar approach to Silloth once?

I'm surprised about Ladybank, I like the drive in there getting glimpses of the holes through the pine trees, takes someone very spoilt in golfing terms not to have some appetite to see the course. I hope I never lose that anticipation of a new course.

Annoyingly though, you're probably right. Nice course but a clear step down from say the 3 W's.

[Paul Gray]

Tom Doak,

Since you've mentioned above some omissions, I will just offer up a three English courses from my limited travel experience. All three I would personally score as either fours or fives but they are omissions nonetheless:

Blackmoor. With Hockley and Leckford now featured, Blackmoor is possibly the only Hampshire course you need to see. Arguably you should also visit the Harry Colt course at Brockenhurst Manor, although I'm not convinced Colt would be too impressed if he saw it today.

Ipswich - Suffolk is often overlooked but Ipswich is a fine James Braid track.

Woodbrigde - Another overlooked James Braid Suffolk course. A charming layout. 

[Tom_Doak]

I'm surprised about Ladybank, I like the drive in there getting glimpses of the holes through the pine trees, takes someone very spoilt in golfing terms not to have some appetite to see the course. I hope I never lose that anticipation of a new course.

Annoyingly though, you're probably right. Nice course but a clear step down from say the 3 W's.

Ryan:

I might have made a different choice if (a) I hadn't walked 100 holes in St. Andrews the day before and (b) my wife wouldn't have had to wait in the car while I walked the course.    But, given those conditions, it didn't look inspiring enough to go.

[Sean_A]

28. Ommissions: If we are talking courses not seen by Doak I would have to wonder why Wallasey has been given the cold shoulder?  And if Wallasey is ticked, I see no reason why any reasonable man wouldn't stop in at Prestbury.  I don't think Tom is as big a fan of Colt as I am, but there is a reasonable chance Prestbury would be interesting because of the hilly land.  Anyway, I thinks its as good as Wallasey and perhaps Colt's best 2nd tier effort.  Chuck in some heather and a London membership and Prestbury would fit nicely in with the quality of the 3 Ws....very good stuff indeed. 

Ciao 

[Duncan Cheslett]

I couldn't agree more, Sean.  Prestbury oozes quality but for some reason remains under the radar. It is certainly worth a visit from Ran for a 'Courses by Country' profile.

A good friend of mine retires next year and is finally considering club membership rather than a nomadic existence. I THINK I've persuaded him that Prestbury would be our his best choice!  

[Niall C]

Tom

I think that fair comment about Duff House Royal. It doesn't look up to much looking out from the clubhouse. However as Ally pointed out, it's largely about the greens and they are as good a set of MacKenzie greens as you will now find in Scotland (I think Christian or Ulrich did a photo tour of it). Interestingly, the story goes that Mac had the opportunity to design the Tarlair course but suggested that the money would be better spent rebuilding Duff House Royal instead.

Ladybank - it has a very good rep in Scotland but from my one play I was disappointed, mainly because they had planted pine trees down the sides of the fairways. Not gnarly old Scots pines either, but the horrible christmas tree type pines with no real character. Even I who is used to tighter courses found it claustrophobic. A shame, some really nice turf. Could have been much better. No idea what it's like now.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

My memories of Duff House Royal are not about the course itself but about the close proximity of the 18th and the clubhouse.

After finishing my first game there my playing partners and I were walking on the path behind the 18th green and in front of the clubhouse when an approach shot to the 18th from the group behind crashed into the clubhouse window. Hell of a noise. Quite a shock. No glass broken though. Then when sitting in the clubhouse a few minutes later the exact same thing happened to a later group. Again no broken window. So we enquire and are advised it happens extremely frequently to special tough/thick/strong glass is in place. Great spectator spot, bit like the patio area behind the 18th green at Kington.

Atb

[Niall C]

ATB

The 18th green is quite close to the clubhouse, but you also need to be pulling your shot to the left to hit the clubhouse (from memory). I suspect the reason why it happens so frequently is that most players (locals at least) will be playing to hit the slope at the back of the green to have the ball run back down to the hole. I've tried it a few times and its a great shot to play.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

27. Best Dormy Houses - Deal: Have you lot stayed there?  Its the Faulty Towers of DHs   .

Proof the Deal fans don't always leap to it's defence!!

[Robert Thompson]

I'd actually say the photography is too small and I find the layout a bit clunky. Recognizing it was done in-house (quite literally if I understand the acknowledgements), I'd say for the price being charged for the book I feel the layout could have been of higher quality through the use of a creative director or designer who would have put a nicer look on this and integrated the photography in a more cohesive way. 

On first glance, I'm not sure I'm as big a fan of this edition as I was the earlier edition. I don't know if the other "voices" add much to the book, and a lot of the write ups/reviews are now 25 years old. Sure there are some new ones (Castle Stuart, Trump, etc.), but I'm not sure there are enough to add a lot to the book.

I'm a big fan of the original version -- I'm just not so sure about this one (which I received as a Christmas present.)

That said, I'm still digesting it.

Very belatedly catching up with this thread and there's a lot to take in. First off, what a beautifully produced book. There's an awful lot to commend in the book, not the least of which is the photography. I also like the fact that the course write up's are dated. It helps to give a sense of perspective. In particular the write up on Old Moray caught my eye, not only because I used to be a member, but also that it was from 1982 when it was supposedly known as the tightest course in Scotland which is not something you could accuse it of being now but just shows how courses change over time.

The writing generally is of a very high quality as you would expect even if you don't always agree with the assessment of the individual courses. If I had any quibbles they would be that the design accreditations are a bit ropey but appreciate that's not what the book is about and should have no bearing on the assessment of the course in any case. What disappointed me a bit more if I'm being honest was the selection of Scottish courses that were included. Or to be more exact, the courses that were missed out. A quick glance at the maps show that the authors rarely seem willing to leave the coastline. Yes it's true, the best courses in Scotland are links, however many of the courses featured are not links but do have a sea view. For example Royal Tarlair is a nice wee course with one terrific hole but about a mile away you have another course (Duff House Royal) that doesn't have a sea view but is much, much better and infinitely more interesting but isn't included in the guide.

Not sure that Tom will ever want to revisit the book with a further edition but if he's ever mad enough to do that then I hope that Tom and his colleagues look to get off the beaten track a bit more and enter the dark heart of Scotland !!

Niall   

[John Kavanaugh]

The above motivated me to finally open my copy. All I can say is the pure joy I received by knowing a golf course critic didn't like the golf course critics book he got for Christmas made my holidays one that I will never forget.

[K Rafkin]

I broke out my guide at the beginning of a long flight yesterday, only to find out that the guy sitting next to me was as interested in the game as i was.  He had heard of the book, but had not purchased a copy so i let him look though mine for a while.  We talked a good bit, and it turns out we both had played quite a few of the same courses so there was much to discuss.  ALthough he lives in Canada, it turns out his family is from the Isle of Harris (the large island just north of the island Askernish is on).  Much golf was discussed on this flight.  I left my new friend with a strong desire to purchase the book for himself (which he very much plans on doing). 

Although not my original intention I'm starting to believe just walking around with this book in my bag is an excellent way to make friends.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I received my copy a month ago and quickly leafed through it before showing it to the Pro at Reddish Vale. He asked if he could borrow it overnight.

I haven't seen it since but every time I go into his shop he tells me what a marvellous book it is!


 

[Niall C]

Robert

In terms of production values, what I liked was the relatively simple, uncluttered layout. Dare I say it, minimalist even  . I'd agree that the photos aren't the biggest but the quality of them is very good. Compare that to some coffee table type books that are peppered with large very artistically done photos that look great from an aesthetic POV but maybe fail to convey much about the hole/course.

With regards to the co-authors, I think you may have a bit of a point. At times I wasn't sure who was writing a particular review, however the range of values offered by the different authors on particular courses was interesting. It at least reinforced the idea that a course rating is a matter of opinion and not a scientific exercise in the mold of Joshua Crane.

Niall

[Robert Thompson]

Niall: I'm used to commercial-quality books, as my wife is in the business. I thought this one wasn't quite what it could have been, but I also think the goal, especially in keeping the photos smaller, was to place the emphasis on the written content. After all, Doak's first versions had no photography.

I'm not being as critical of this as John K seems to think I am; I quite like it and have read it thoroughly. I just think, for the price of the book, the layout might have been more sophisticated.

As for the "other" authors, Doak says all of the writing is his. So I suspect they provided notes and he utilized them. This is only really odd in places where they saw something that he hasn't seen. That I found slightly awkward.

And given that all you get are four numbers at the bottom of each, it is hard to get a real sense of the perspective of each reviewer. That's my take.