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Nigel_Walton

Bias is Good
« on: August 27, 2003, 12:13:21 PM »
There seems to be a good deal of discussion on this site about bias in some of the participants. Frankly, I think bias is a natural and wonderful part of most criticism. Once we know what an observer's general bias is, only then does their perspective on something become truly helpful. For example, if a new, highly touted, Rees Jones course were not to Matt Ward's liking, it would be extremely unlikely that I would take a look at it. If one of the many Naturalist (Doak/CC/Hanse, etc) admirers were to make a positive comment about a Nicklaus course, it would have great effect on my desire to see it, because their opinion was unexpected. Bias is helpful.

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2003, 12:36:27 PM »
Bias-  a particular tendency or inclination, esp one which prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question.

Bias-, prejudice mean a strong inclination of the mind or a preconceived opinion about someone or something

Preference- act of preferring; estimation of one thing above another; prior favor or choice


Nigel- preferences are one thing and those can be used as you state but bias or preconceived opinions without facts are dangerous.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2003, 12:51:06 PM »
Geoffrey,

What I like about you is your methodical, scientific manner in exposing flaws in someone's reasoning..... or golf game. How can I ever forget the three under par after the first seven holes at Pasatiempo!

As a scientist and researcher you get to the point and I must agree with your response to Nigel's question. I have my own biases but that does not make them cogent.  

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2003, 01:12:31 PM »
Bob

Thank you.  No doubt, we all have our biases but certainly not about golf courses  ;)

I like your memory as I think it was one under and then rapidly followed by a 3 putt on #8, hitting the trees on 9 and yada yada yada.  It was my first round of the year and the blind squirrel found an acorn early on but the hawk found him in the middle of a field and ate him up later on  :)

Matt_Ward

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2003, 01:33:32 PM »
Nigel:

Appreciate the mention but I do dislike plenty of courses -- beyond those designed by Rees Jones. I've always stated that I review / rate courses -- not architects -- some people should remember that. I also don't think it's fair to be cast as the base barometer for courses certain designers. Keeping an open mind is what really should be the way to go but there are people who simply like Woody Allen movies no matter what he directs.

I think what Geoff mentioned is the key -- people can have preferences but when they are biased the mind is closed. I see it everyday -- heck, even here on GCA. ::)

T_MacWood

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2003, 03:10:46 PM »
Bias can be good, bias can be bad. I'm biased toward the work I like...I'm biased toward artists who appeal to me. Bias is the natural product of a discerning individual.

On GCA the term has been used for the most part as a negative, to paint people on the opposite side of an issue as prejudiced. Its easier than making an intellegent counter argument.

Taste's differ...IMO its is intellectually lazy and arrogant to portrait those with differing opinions as biased (prejudiced).

« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 03:13:02 PM by Tom MacWood »

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2003, 03:38:59 PM »
Tom

Do you really mean to say that preconceived opinions are good?  ???

Do you really mean to say that prejudiced opinions are OK?  ???

Bias is not the natural product of a discerning individual. It is the product of a lazy individual who intellectually or physically isn't willing to have an open mind.

Preferences on the other hand are a natural product of the heterogeneity of human experience. They are healthy in an atmosphere of democratic ideals.

PS- nice edit there Tom- why not leave your original thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 05:51:16 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

T_MacWood

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2003, 05:48:04 PM »
Preconcieved opinions are neither good nor bad....they are reality. Anyone who says they don't have preconcieved thoughts before seeing the work of a familiar artist (be it a golf course, art , music, film, etc) is lying. Explain to me how your previous experiences are not going to profoundly effect your in-coming thoughts....that doesn't mean you can't be objective. With each experience your opinions evolve...but you have opinions and you bring them with you each every time you evaluate anything.

For me the word prejudice is synonimous with racial and religious hatred--bigotry. A bigot is an ignorant person who is ruled by emotion. They are incapable of intelligent analysis. Often on GCA the meaning of the word "bias" is distorted (vilifying opposing opinion), it is used interchangably with prejudice or bigotry. The use of the word in this way is also a form of bigotry in my opinion...it is an emotional and ignorant response....a poor replacement for intelligent analysis or an intelligent response.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 05:48:34 PM by Tom MacWood »

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2003, 05:59:49 PM »
Tom

To be objective a person must

1- Have an open mind
2- Enough data to obtain a rational opinion.

All too often here on GCA individuals spout opinions from heresay, millimeter sized 2-dimentional photos or none of the above.  All without ever actually seeing yet alone playing a course. Those are the ignorant responses.  Those are the intellectually lazy ideas and those are a poor replacement for intelligent analysis.

T_MacWood

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2003, 06:01:11 PM »
Geoffrey
What did I edit?

T_MacWood

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2003, 06:14:54 PM »
When judging an artisitc expression....

Who determines if a person has an open mind? (are you required to have an open mind yourself to judge if someone else has an open mind, and who judges if you have an open mind?)

Who determines how much data is sufficient?

If I didn't know better your last paragraph was a not so sly dig at my documentation of the changes at Bethpage. Documenting changes seems to me a different animal all together...documenting changes requires thorough research and would be impossible without the assistance of photographic evidence...it is hardly a lazy or unintellegent exercise IMO.

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2003, 07:57:49 PM »
Tom

You might be surprised but I totally agree with your last post.

I certainly can not judge whether you or anyone else has an open mind or not.

Documenting changes is as clear cut as can be if the data are clear enough (no dig at all meant here about your or any other data).

Making clear and rational judgements on anything other then a bunker was in place A and now it is in place B requires more. This has now gone beyond bias vs. preference and I will expand perhaps in another discussion.

With regard to preconceived opinions and the resulting judgements, you are correct ONLY if the resulting observations are adequate to render a verdict AND if the viewer has an open mind. Looking at some photos is in my opinion not adequate to render a rational verdict.

I have preconceived ideas about certain courses

For PV they were huge and the course in person actually exceeded these expectations.  NGLA was another example.

I actually had some preconceived expectations (based on GCA and photos) of Atlantic.  I was pleasantly surprised to see the vistas and the quality of the golf course in person. A second visit tempered my opinion somewhat.

Friars Head came with great expectations.  In person, they were exceeded greatly.

On the other hand, based on GCA profiles and discussions I had certain expectations for Hidden Creek.  In person they were not reached.

These are my personal observations based on what I think is an open mind and adequate observation and research. Others can take them as they wish.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 08:42:55 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

T_MacWood

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2003, 06:50:03 AM »
Geoffrey
I believe you can go a little farther than documenting bunker A and B. You can describe the strategic and stylstic tendencies of achitect A. You can point out 'variety' being one of backbone's of A's design work. You can point out the strategic and stylistic tendiencies of architect B and contrast them with architect A.

I agree that judging the merits of a golf course via a photo or photo's is a poor substitute for playing it, but I I'm not sure I'd refer to that activity as example of unreasonable bias. That person is simply expressing their opinion based on what the see in the photo (I don't recall anyone judging an entire golf course based on a photo)--each person can judge the merits of such an exercise. Anyone is free to counter their opinion and if they have played the course that is weighed in. No need to attack the other person....no need to accuse them of bias....they are entitled to state their opinion and explain their opinion is based on what they see in the photo.

I have had very similar experiences to yours...being surprised one way or another...I'm sure everyone on this board has had their preconcieved ideas punctured....IMO this is an objective (and strongly opionated) group--I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

GCA is full of individuals with a spectrum of differing tastes and preferences. Some which are polar extremes...but those extremes are not the result of bigotry or irrational bias. I don't believe bias--used in its most negative way--is an accurate assessment of anyone on GCA.

MargaretC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2003, 11:21:02 AM »
Gentlemen:

bias: Bent or Tendency -- an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : PREJUDICE : an instance of such prejudice (1) : deviation of the expected value of a statistical estimate from the quantity it estimates (2) : systematic error introduced into sampling or testing by selecting or encouraging one outcome or answer over others...

Synonym: Predilection

IMHO, bias or a preference is almost an inevitable part of life.  That said, I think a wise person makes efforts to be aware of his bias and its potential impact (as a filter) on his learning process.

More often than not, it's the unreasoned judgement that presents obstacles.

This site would be very boring if the individuals who participated didn't have different opinions.   ;)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2003, 11:23:51 AM by MargaretC »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2003, 03:24:05 PM »
Margaret,

You wrote "This site would be very boring if the individuals who participated didn't have different opinions."

Have you ever heard a differing opinion or discouraging word on this site re the NGLA? From the panegyrics it receives, it would appear to be the Elysian Fields, Valhalla and that place where certain fanatics go to meet their 99 virgins in eternity.

Sometimes, the homage to the place is somewhat overwrought.



 

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2003, 03:30:55 PM »
Bob

We MUST get you back east for some golf and especially NGLA.

Remember- Shivas actually ATE his scorecard.

Its sort of like Cypress Point in that we come with such great expectations and yet they are met and we experience holes that are 15's out of a possible 10.

99 Virgins  8)  :-*
« Last Edit: August 28, 2003, 03:32:41 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

JakaB

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2003, 03:48:41 PM »
Bob,

TEPaul has said that the members of NGLA show a sign of weakness through the use of hole indicators for several blind shots....While I agree it is a weakness...I find it to be a weakness in design and not of the members when the location of a blind hole is not simply implied through what is left to be seen...A course can never be the scapegoat of its members and remain without fault....bias or not.

Others have said that a simple change of par would correct what the course may lack in distance...if so.. can a sane mind say an improperly designed par 5 is a great par 4...or the sequence of par in relation to risk is irrelevant in great design...A great many people speak ill of NGLA in the shadows...for what reason I fear to find out.


MargaretC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2003, 04:46:59 PM »


Bob, the occasional consensus regarding works of art, IMO, does not adversely impact the generally spirited exchange on this site.  More often than not, even though there may appear to be a universal appreciation for a particular work, different aspects appeal to different persons so that even in consensus, differences can be noted and appreciated.

We played NGLA once and it truly is wonderful.   :P

JakaB

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2003, 08:05:57 PM »
Shivas,

I doubt if you would have loved NGLA as much or in the same way two years ago...would have you.  What does it mean...what does it say about you or the collective us...I am afraid what you loved is what you have learned to love and not what you would have ever loved on your own.   But thats really just me about me...and a long two years it has been.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2003, 10:15:01 PM »
Jakab;

Join the collective.  Resistance is futile.  ;)


Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2003, 11:29:24 PM »
In reply to the collective wisdom of my good friends here, I would mention that I have played NGLA but once, back in 1976. I must say I thoroughly enjoyed the round and the lunch that followed. At the time I was 46 years old and carried a four handicap, up from my younger days. I scored well.

After lunch I played Shinnecock. Ah, now I was in paradise. As good a test of golf as a man could want. I must say that at that time, my appreciation of the nuances of classical architecture was limited, but am I wrong in saying Shinnecock is a better course?

Rihc Goodale, H..E..L..P.

ForkaB

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2003, 06:30:00 AM »
Bob

Of course you are right.  Shinnecock is a superior golf course to NGLA--only the most obsessed CB-heads or the most sentimental golf historians would say otherwise.

Golf--whilst many other things, to many other people--is above all a sport and a game.  It is a test of skill--physical, mental, psychological, situational, etc.  Shinnecock excels in presenting all of these tests to all players.  Its tests are demanding.  Even the slightest error leads to an exponentially difficult next shot.  It is "penality" of the Chinese water torture ilk--more like the grinding down of poker than the win/lose concept of roulette.  The better player will almost always win at Shinnecock.

NGLA, on the other hand, is fun!  Anybody can shoot a good round there--even me!  It is like the Boston Museum of Science, with all sorts of historical and tactile and engaging displays.  Even the chronologically challenged of us can enjoy its charms.  And yet, there is some point in our lives where we make the decision about golf as to whether it is a game of charm or a game of more significance.  When in Boston, do we go to the MOS and play with the van de Graff generators, or do we go to the Gardner Museum and contemplate how the masters of art chose to look at and express life and relate that to our own experieces and knowledge and capabilities?

NGLA is huge fun, but it can be had.  I'm sure it can be "tuned up" to challenge reasonably top amateurs (e.g. at the Singles), but elite players will eat it up, and clinically so, regardless of its "maintenance meld."  Not so with Shinnecock.

My personal favorites are courses that combine the fun of NGLA with the challenge of Shinnecock.  There are a few of them out there, but they are getting fewer and fewer as technology exposes the "weaknesses" of many of our most revered venues.

C'est dommage, mais c'est la vie!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 06:32:54 AM by Rich Goodale »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2003, 08:29:43 AM »
Bias? At GCA? In favor of MacD/Raynor courses?

Being a resident of Atlanta, I have always had a hard time convincing people from the NY metro area that they - in their own inimitable way - can be provincial too.

Bob

« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 08:45:56 AM by BCrosby »

GeoffreyC

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2003, 08:56:04 AM »
As the good Dr. (Vostinak of course  :) ) says.  Blondes, Brunettes or Redheads?  

Bob Huntley- No one will ever argue if you say that Shinnicock Hills is the best course on the planet. If you are into "examination of skills" that's clearly the choice and ones' preference for it is understandable. However, for variety, short game interest, thrills and sheer fun NGLA wins. Come back for a visit please.

Rich- Maybe I'm the only one who has scored better from the Open tees at SH in the afternoon then backs at NGLA in the morning. It depends on the state of one's game at the moment. Mine sucked in the AM after the very early drive out to the Hamptons.

Bob Corsby- NYers provincial?  Of course but this BIAS would be more understandable to you if you hadn't spent your time in the northeast in Boston!  ;D (Go Yankees)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 09:19:15 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

ForkaB

Re:Bias is Good
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2003, 09:13:44 AM »
Geoff

I shall always genuflect to the 84 you scored at Shinnecock.  As you may remember, I hacked it around on both courses and shot 79-80 (who's counting?) in the morning at Nirvana and 88+ in the afternoon at Perfection.  As Nietzsche said:

"Every tradition grows ever more venerable--the more remote is its origin, the more confused that origin is.  The reverence due to it increases from generation to generation.  The tradition finally becomes holy and inspires awe."

Thus understandeth one how most of us spaketh on NGLA..........

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