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Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2014, 11:05:03 AM »
At our course you see wear around the greens.  Never heard of a concern from tee to green anywhere.

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2014, 11:20:46 AM »
Joe -  Your title should be "Push cart damage (maybe)?   Have you tried to contact the person at your club that is saddled with making these decisions on a daily basis?  They might have a good reason.  They might even have a set of guidlines they use to make these decisions.    I'm a GCS and do have to make decisions that affect the use of the course.  This is the part of my job I like the least.  I can deal with anything else "mother nature" wants to throw my way but when weather casued grey area in use of the course I start to hate my job.  Can't make everyone happy.  I have developed a theme that I use when one Member says, "awe common, it's only a few carts going out".  I remind them that keeping the course is not a spirnt, it is a marathon.    If they can assure me that I will only be evaluated on the results of my decision that day and not what might happen two weeks or a month from now, we have a problem.  However, I also tell them that I can only make a RECOMMENDATION and it is their golf course.  They are free to seek a decsion from the Committee Chair or President if they like.  Somehow it never really happens because nobody wants to have it tagged on them. 

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2014, 01:44:24 PM »
Guys, we're talking about bermuda grass in August.  C'mon...

It would be a weird decision in January.  But this time of year?  Words fail me.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Sean Remington (SBR)

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2014, 09:21:43 PM »
Guys, we're talking about bermuda grass in August.  C'mon...

It would be a weird decision in January.  But this time of year?  Words fail me.

Yes, but there is still a reason why.  Just because we can't conceive of one that makes sense to us does not mean it's not valid.  I don't grow bermuda  fairways I can't relate.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2014, 09:28:20 PM »
Guys, we're talking about bermuda grass in August.  C'mon...

It would be a weird decision in January.  But this time of year?  Words fail me.

Yes, but there is still a reason why.  Just because we can't conceive of one that makes sense to us does not mean it's not valid.  I don't grow bermuda  fairways I can't relate.

Sean,
I know bermuda grass pretty well; the reason for the decision is either petty or ulterior.  It has ZERO to do with grass.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2014, 08:28:41 AM »
As many have indicated, the only real problem with push carts is how they concentrate traffic, sometimes with paths of short grass are cut in the rough, sometimes around a bunker or between a green and a bunker. Sometimes those well treaded paths are actually a touch lower than the surrounding terrain and do get more occasional water. Concentrating all the traffic on a wet part of the course might cause mud, compaction, and thinning of the grass. I would never implement a 90 degree rule with push carts, but it might have to do with this. I would rather rope off certain areas and have people go around it, change traffic patterns. At our club we do require carts leaving fairways and into cart paths or rough areas some 20 yards prior to the greens. Nothing worse than having no grass and compacted dirt on fringes.

As an aside, with very wet fairways, damage can result from the wheels, but on normal days, the concentrated walking, carrying or pushing is far worse, in my experience.


BCowan

Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2014, 08:44:39 AM »
If the course is too wet for trollies, it is probably too wet to be open.  The trollies are so lightweight these days

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2014, 12:31:18 PM »
If the course is too wet for trollies, it is probably too wet to be open.  The trollies are so lightweight these days
Certainly in the UK it is possible to keep a course open for walking only but no trollies allowed however lightweight. As eluded too in most of the threads here, it is mainly about concentrating traffic into vulnerable areas.
I have always quoted that if you consider that 1 player walking does 1 unit of damage in the summer that unit of damage might be up to 20 fold under wet winter conditions (UK- but this may apply in other climates). Wear can be seen and to a degree be measured, compaction is not so easy to measure. Winter warmers at a discounted rate in the UK can be very foolish, UK golf courses need rest when the grass growth is minimal, some clubs maybe taking £5 but doing £10 worth of damage.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 01:09:33 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2014, 03:45:51 PM »
If the course is too wet for trollies, it is probably too wet to be open.  The trollies are so lightweight these days

Agreed.  Walker with trolley probably does less damage that walker carrying.  However, clubs need to do a much better job of educating their members about how to be gentle, be they in carts/buggies, using pull carts/trolleys, or power caddies, particularly with respect to vulnerable areas (same goes for how to fix fairway divots and how to repair ball marks on the greens -- all relate to the same issue, maintaining the surface as best as possible and still have enjoyable rounds of golf).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 03:54:56 PM by Carl Johnson »

Brent Hutto

Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2014, 03:46:19 PM »
Our course in South Carolina is dormant Bermuda in winter and in fact our base is mostly sand as well. But the concentration of traffic issues do apply. Basically our Superintendent has a collection of small signs that he stakes out in the "concentration" areas around greens requesting that no push-cart or foot traffic be in those areas.

Otherwise we'll have a couple dozen places around the course where living-room-rug-sized areas get trampled into muck or hardpan (depending on whether it rained lately) by the end of January.

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2014, 06:21:20 AM »
Our course in South Carolina is dormant Bermuda in winter and in fact our base is mostly sand as well. But the concentration of traffic issues do apply. Basically our Superintendent has a collection of small signs that he stakes out in the "concentration" areas around greens requesting that no push-cart or foot traffic be in those areas.

Otherwise we'll have a couple dozen places around the course where living-room-rug-sized areas get trampled into muck or hardpan (depending on whether it rained lately) by the end of January.

THAT... makes sense. I think we have issues on a few greens collars for similar reasons.

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2014, 12:39:24 PM »
At Springdale we have a real walking culture and a significant amount of Trolley - push cart use.

For several years we had a rule that the push carts had to go around the bunkers, rather than between the bunkers and the greens.

I have been looking for the effect of push carts for years, and really can't identify any.

What it DID accomplish was taking 60% of the pedistrian volume away from some high traffic areas between bunkers and greens.

Eventually the rule was dropped since the Super and Green Chair came to the conclusion that it was not the push carts that were the issue.

Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2014, 03:33:47 PM »
I don't think the "high traffic areas" thing passes muster here as a reason.  Those areas are virtually always created by where cart traffic parks and enters the green or fairway.  Walkers are usually on a different line anyway.

And again, the OP is talking about bermuda grass in the summer.  There is just no comparing this grass to anything in the UK, summer OR winter.  It is almost indestructible, and certainly so by trolleys.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2014, 05:22:28 PM »
If the course is too wet for trollies, it is probably too wet to be open.  The trollies are so lightweight these days
Certainly in the UK it is possible to keep a course open for walking only but no trollies allowed however lightweight. As eluded too in most of the threads here, it is mainly about concentrating traffic into vulnerable areas.
I have always quoted that if you consider that 1 player walking does 1 unit of damage in the summer that unit of damage might be up to 20 fold under wet winter conditions (UK- but this may apply in other climates). Wear can be seen and to a degree be measured, compaction is not so easy to measure. Winter warmers at a discounted rate in the UK can be very foolish, UK golf courses need rest when the grass growth is minimal, some clubs maybe taking £5 but doing £10 worth of damage.

Ben,

Adrian is absolutely spot on with this. Gert members to carry in the winter and it takes a series of monsoons to close the average course over here. Pushing or pulling a trolley across a wet course however will cause all sorts of damage.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2014, 03:19:12 PM »
I don't think the "high traffic areas" thing passes muster here as a reason.  Those areas are virtually always created by where cart traffic parks and enters the green or fairway.  Walkers are usually on a different line anyway.

And again, the OP is talking about bermuda grass in the summer.  There is just no comparing this grass to anything in the UK, summer OR winter.  It is almost indestructible, and certainly so by trolleys.

In truly warm weather climates where Bermuda doesn't go dormant, yes, I agree its indestructible.

Here in North Carolina, where we're in a transition zone, between dormancy AND occaisional cold temperature damage from winters, the traffic can keep the Bermuda from thriving when warm weather finally arrives.

That's the basis of my theory that Push carts and foot traffic are the contributors to this damage.


Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2015, 07:16:14 AM »
This message came across my email yesterday:

"We hope everyone had a very Merry Christmas.  We are open today!  Tee times are on schedule but anything with wheels such as riding or push carts will be path only". 

I wish I would have found this last year:

http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/2000s/2004/041111.pdf
 
 
 "Some courses have banned the use of pull-carts, citing the smaller tires that may cause greater soil compaction and turf damage. There is little evidence to support this claim, which is usually an attempt to force golfers to rent motorized golf carts". 
   

Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2015, 09:59:06 PM »
Probably the courses that do this simply want to discourage walking because they feel it hurts their revenue.  Make it more of a pain for walkers and maybe they'll ride instead and the course makes more money!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2015, 04:04:15 PM »
We have had an incredible amount of rain in the SE over the past few weeks (months, really).  There have been several days in the past few weeks for which local courses here in the RDU area have simply not been able to open due to standing water on the greens or completely flooded fairways, even on days when it didn't rain much or any; I've never seen anything quite like it here, and I've been in the SE my whole life. 


I played yesterday at Finley-UNC without any rain, and it was the first time in my life that I felt like even push carts like my Clicgear should have been confined to the path; I couldn't stay out of the mud, no matter where I went.  After the round, I had to go to the cart barn and not only wash off my push cart, but I also turned the hose full blast on my own shoes! 


But really, the answer is that if the course is so wet that footprints and push carts leave marks, the course just shouldn't be open at all. Plus, it's rained another couple of inches today, and I have zero doubt that any marks my cart and my size 13's left yesterday are long gone now.


But all of this begs the question of the OP, which had to do with summer conditions.  I'll have to be shown full-on bermuda grass that needs protection in the middle of the summer from a push cart before I believe that it's anything but a revenue issue.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Matt Wharton

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2015, 07:06:12 PM »

We have had an incredible amount of rain in the SE over the past few weeks (months, really).  There have been several days in the past few weeks for which local courses here in the RDU area have simply not been able to open due to standing water on the greens or completely flooded fairways, even on days when it didn't rain much or any; I've never seen anything quite like it here, and I've been in the SE my whole life. 


I played yesterday at Finley-UNC without any rain, and it was the first time in my life that I felt like even push carts like my Clicgear should have been confined to the path; I couldn't stay out of the mud, no matter where I went.  After the round, I had to go to the cart barn and not only wash off my push cart, but I also turned the hose full blast on my own shoes! 


But really, the answer is that if the course is so wet that footprints and push carts leave marks, the course just shouldn't be open at all. Plus, it's rained another couple of inches today, and I have zero doubt that any marks my cart and my size 13's left yesterday are long gone now.


But all of this begs the question of the OP, which had to do with summer conditions.  I'll have to be shown full-on bermuda grass that needs protection in the middle of the summer from a push cart before I believe that it's anything but a revenue issue.


Mr. Crockett,



In Charlotte we have received more rain in the past 3 months (>24 inches) as we did all of Jan-Sep.  At Carolina Golf Club we received over 10 inches in November and as of 4:00 pm today nearly 8.5 inches in December.  The worst part of our current conditions is 7.25 of the 8.5 has fallen over the past 8 days!  In other words the golf course is beyond saturated and the ground is as soft as I've ever witnessed in my ten years as superintendent here.  I received an email Monday morning from one of my members questioning whether or not turf damage caused by push carts was significant or superficial.  His question stemmed from what he witnessed during his round this past Sunday (last day we permitted play).



I personally believe most push cart damage is superficial but can become significant if saturated conditions persist for prolonged periods and steps are not taken to reduce or eliminate the concentrated traffic in severe areas.  Over the past couple years I've learned many courses in the UK either prohibit "trolleys" or they must use approved "winter wheels" (a wider smooth tread that greatly reduces the overall footprint) during the wet winter golf seasons.  The biggest issue I see at Carolina is most walkers (we store approximately 100 personally owned push carts of various makes and models for our 500 golf members) using a push cart seem to do so with little regard to current course conditions.  In other words, there is little evidence to indicate any attempts to avoid the softest/wettest areas have been made.  It appears as if when Cart Path Only conditions are in effect then walking with a push cart somehow circumvents the need to proceed cautiously and use good judgement when trekking the golf course.  A frustrating conundrum to say the least.


Praying for drier and sunnier days for all of us soon!  Happy New Year!

Matthew Wharton, CGCS, MG
Idle Hour CC
Lexington, KY

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2015, 07:42:18 PM »
At least some of you belong to courses where you can use push carts or trolleys!  My home club Lehigh CC doesn't allow them  ???
They claim it will impact our caddie program but that is a farce.  There should be times when caddies aren't available that push carts are allowed.  It would encourage walking!  I think they see it as a status issue as well!  Sad  :(

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Push cart damage (really)?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2015, 04:01:36 AM »
The biggest issue I see at Carolina is most walkers (we store approximately 100 personally owned push carts of various makes and models for our 500 golf members) using a push cart seem to do so with little regard to current course conditions.  In other words, there is little evidence to indicate any attempts to avoid the softest/wettest areas have been made.  It appears as if when Cart Path Only conditions are in effect then walking with a push cart somehow circumvents the need to proceed cautiously and use good judgement when trekking the golf course.  A frustrating conundrum to say the least.


Isn't the same true for those on foot? I've seen some pretty big muddy footprints through areas of standing water on the fairway made by guys who are riding carts and following the cart path only rule. They park their cart perpendicular to their ball, grab a club, and walk straight to it through whatever is in their path. Those who wear waterproof golf shoes need not care about pussy footing around the really soggy areas like I must (I golf in ordinary sneakers, which are not waterproof, though if it is really bad I'll just play barefoot)

When the ground is badly saturated, cart path only may prevent damage to the course from carts, but not from those riding in them.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

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