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Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions...
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2003, 12:10:55 PM »
Tommy,

Someone in the know, I can't remember who, said that another architect (perhaps Cupp?), turned down the project because they thought the site was too boring and had no potential.


Tom D,

I believe one of your stalled projects is Harmony in GA, correct?  I'm interested in the status of that project because that area could be where I end up retiring to in 20 years, and it's hard to find top quality courses in the South that allow/encourage walking.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2003, 12:28:19 PM »
Scott,
Ralph Mahan, who owns a lot of the land around Rustic, and also has the easement going in, also owned the land for Tijera Rejada. When the developers of Tijera Rejada more or less lost the rights for a portion of the property the course sits on (The best portion) and the course was shifted Northwest, They asked their architect--Bob Cupp if the new site would be feasible, if not, there might be a chance to get the Happy Camp property.  He emphatically said No! That the paticular site had no good architectural features.

The owner of Rustic Canyon's first choice from the get go was Gil and Geoff.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 12:30:31 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2003, 12:33:06 PM »
Jamie Duffner,

You're being naive.

It's not arrogance, it's common sense.

Why would Nicklaus, Fazio and Jones come on this site to defend themselves ??  And to defend themselves to whom ???
What obligation do they have to any of us ?

I don't know what you do for a living, but would you agree to be interviewed by a website that is generally critical of your work ???  

Do you believe that you'd be able to convert them, en masse ?

Why and for what purpose would you agree to be interviewed?
What good would come out of it, and would it be a wise investment of your time and intellectual capital ????

THuckaby2

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2003, 12:34:42 PM »
I just want to say that I agree with Patrick Mucci's questions here 100%.  As deluded he is about the greatness of his alma mater, he is right on re this issue.  Thus there does remain hope for the man.

 ;D

Yes, I am having some fun with this.

TH

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions...
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2003, 12:36:58 PM »
Tommy,

Almost exactly what I heard, but perhaps a little different, hence the slight difference.  Either that or I heard what I wanted to hear.   ::)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions...
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2003, 12:49:22 PM »
Why do Tom Doak & Jeff Brauer & Mike DeVries & Ian Andrew & Gil Hanse & Brian Phillips & whoever else I'm forgetting come here?

To defend themselves? Maybe a tiny bit.

But I think it's because they share a passion for their field & enjoy sharing it with the rest of us, letting us in on their thoughts, seeing what others are doing, & maybe even learning a little from the discussion.

I agree with Paul Turner completely & will go a step further & say that anyone who's not willing to have his views or thoughts challenged is weak & lacks proper self esteem.

The only acceptable excuse from me is that someone doesn't get involved with the whole computer/internet thing or maybe doesn't have time. I can at least accept that, though I do think it's a bit of a cop out, too.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 12:51:24 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jamie_Duffner

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2003, 12:58:28 PM »
Pat - If you're someone who only talks to people who agree with you, then so be it.  I think there is a lot to be gained for both sides, obviously more so for GCA, but if it were done by Ran, then clearly it would be a very classy interview.

There are some people who would view talking to those who disagree with them as an opportunity, others would never entertain the thought because they feel nothing would be gained.  It just depends on how you feel about that sort of thing.  But, in the spirit of civil debate, I'd like to see them come on here.  

To answer your questions, I would certainly agree to be interviewed by a website critical of my work.  I like that sort of challenge.  If I were to go into that sort of thing looking for converts, then that would be naive.  But it happens in every walk of life, every day.  People in high places are always being asked highly sensitive and critical questions.  

This is golf course architecture for crying out loud, not world politics.  We should stop taking it so seriously.  This is one of the most respected websites on golf course architecture asking three of the biggest names in golf course architecture for an interview.  They have no obligation to do anything, but they could do it and that might be enlightening.

Get off the "defending" angle, it has nothing to do with defending anything.  They do what they do and some us would like to ask them why they do it.  Plain and simple.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2003, 01:01:44 PM »
Jamie,

You wrote, "Isn't the point of an interview to ask someone to "defend" certain philosophies, styles, positions, etc?  Perhaps I should word it "explain why he feels that way." "

You then followed by saying, "There in lies the problem.  If Fazio, Nicklaus, and Rees feel they do not need to explain themselves or at least expand on a position, then it's arrogance.  They are building these courses and asking us to pay a lot of money to play them, so asking them why they feel a certain way is not out of line. If they feel that they do not owe anyone a little commentary, then they've got the problem."

The problem is more than one of semantics. You change your phrase from "to defend" to "explain" as if the mere use of a different word will make a difference, yet you follow it up by saying "If F/N/R feel they do not need to explain themselves... then iot's arrogance."

Why is it arrogance for someone to choose not to answer questions from someone who is openly and knowingly critical of their work, sometimes even to an extreme (I am speaking in gneneral here and not of you specifically)?

As someone who conducts interviews for a living (meager though it mat be), I can state without any doubts, that a good interviewer is NOT one who is hell-bent on either making the person he is interviewing "defend/explain" his opinions/postions or act as a P.R. shill for that person.

In all of the posts so far on this thread, I have yet to read ONE question that someone feels they want to ask either of these three men. I believe it would be most interesting to see what we might want to ask them as an example of what they would be subjected to by an interview by GCA.

I would start by asking a simple question that could lead in a number of different areas depending on how it is answered. For example:

F/N/R, of the courses you have designed, not those you have helped to reconstruct or refurbish, which one are you most proud of and which one least?

Now that is a benign enough question, but why would any architect want to answer it? Doing so puts them into a position of telling a group of people he did work for, his client, that the work he did might not be satisfactory.

Because of examples like that, one has to really plan and phrase a question properly in order to get a response other than something like, "I view all of my courses like my children; I love them all equally."

Also, remember that just because questions, benign or not, are asked, it doesn't mean that an answer will or has to follow.

For example, in writing my book on the 2002 U.S. Open (due out in March 2003), for a chapter titled "What Do They Think of it Now" I asked a number of people, including some well and not-so-well known architects to comment, on what they thought of the refurbished Black course and how it performed in the Open. One architect responded to this innocently benign question by saying, "In truth, I don't really think I have any unique insights to offer about the course, and though I respect his work, I don't really see any point in my adding to Rees Jones' stature as the Open Doctor."

This is a very honest answer. Some might think it petty and little, others might feel that it's about time someone stood up and said it. Depending on the interviewer, he might feel the necessity of asking the architect to "defend" this position and to do so vigorously and in a manner that the one asked will not appreciate.

Just because we have questions we would like to hear answers to, doesn't mean that we will or that we can even be in the position to ask them.

So, what questions would you like to ask of these three men?

Maybe someone can ask them.




     
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 01:03:14 PM by Phil_the_Author »

TEPaul

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2003, 01:09:26 PM »
"am I to understand that both are fairly aware of this site?  How aware are they?  Do either lurk here?  Do they monitor what goes on here?"

Ted:

I think I'd say that would be a bunch of yeses!


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2003, 01:13:24 PM »
Jamie Duffner,

As I said, I think you're being a bit naive.

George Pazin,

Rarely have I seen one poster go head to head with Tom Doak in an agressive manner, with an agenda.
Tom enjoys "most favored nation" on this site.

I don't think that the same "climate" exists with N/F/J and any interaction would have a decidedly different tone and motives.

Phil the Author,

You've put forth a sensible response.

Tom Huckaby,

Like TEPaul, eventually, you'll see the light.
TE, like you, initially resisted, but eventually, he got it.
You too, shall follow in his newly enlightened footsteps. ;D

Jamie_Duffner

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2003, 01:17:09 PM »
Phil - valid CRITICISM of my post!  Perhaps I am not articulating my point very effectively.  Defend, explain, I'm not sure my point was to put them on the spot.  That said, to probe (is that a better word?) there thought process and why they do things would be interesting.  I don't buy the excuse that they get bashed on this site.  It's simply not true.  There certainly is a lot of criticism, some get unnecessarily insulting, and that's ashame.

I agree with your proposed questions and I am sure that is how Ran would conduct his interview.  This isn't Jim Gray interviewing Pete Rose!

It's one thing to turn down an interview with someone or a group that is blatantly insulting, it's another to say "they don't agree with me so I won't talk to them."  In either case, it is their right, but in the case of the latter, if you have conviction and self esteem, then there could be something gained by both sides.

I don't understand this idea that they don't owe us anything, so therefore they don't need to be interviewed.  Of course they don't owe us anything.  Most interviewees owe nothing to the interviewer, but they still do it.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2003, 01:18:23 PM »
Huck,
Your forgetting that Jamie is a Notre Dame grad also.

Pat & Jamie: Hush! Your making us look bad! We don't need this infighting this soon into the season!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2003, 01:20:32 PM »
BTW, I had 18 GCA questions for Rees Jones all set up last night, even posted, but wisely took them down because it would have been perceived as me being, well, me.

If any of you wish to see them, email me or IM me and I will send them to you so you can laugh at the joke.


Jamie_Duffner

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2003, 01:20:58 PM »
Pat - no you're being naive, so there  ;D

How can you compare Tom Doak, who regularly posts here, answers questions, enters debates, and takes criticism, to J/F/R who never post here or interact with any of us?  How do you draw any sort of comparison, when Tom Doak interacts, while the other three do not?  Talk about a flawed argument.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 01:24:11 PM by Jamie_Duffner »

Jamie_Duffner

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2003, 01:23:24 PM »
Tommy - I was about to head over to that post next, but then thought it was just another USC grad and/or fan with an inferiority complex ;D

Sort of how us Yankee fans feel about Red Sox fans.  Talk about opening a can of worms!

T_MacWood

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2003, 01:26:37 PM »
I reckon Ran would ask similar questions to what he normally asks...just look at his past interviews....you can't turn it into a roast and hope to have any future interviews.

Ran wouldn't try to embarrass these fellows. Its not a live interview, if they didn't like the questions they could simply side step the question or the entire interview. Most of the questions explore influences, tastes, philospophies, etc...I don't recall any question puting someone in a difficult spot.

Other than the questions regarding influences and tastes, I would like to get their thoughts preservation vs restoration vs renovation.


TEPaul

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2003, 01:42:07 PM »
"Like TEPaul, eventually, you'll see the light.
TE, like you, initially resisted, but eventually, he got it.
You too, shall follow in his newly enlightened footsteps."

Pat:

What're 'my newly enlightened footsteps'? What did I resist and what do you think I eventually 'got'?

If you're starting to sing your "bias", "double standard" and "most favored nation status" song again I still don't get that, I still ain't seeing that "light" because I don't buy that.

What you have on here is a number of contributors who just don't much like the architecture of Rees Jones and Tom Fazio and have said why. That's no double standard to me at all unless someone is operating under some bizarre premise, as apparently you've been, that all architecture and all architects should start out being viewed as either great or at the very least should start out being view the same!

Fortunately or unfortunately that's just not the way it goes in either life or golf course architecture.

But my own personal philosophy is not really to pan some architect---my philosophy is just to fit them somewhere into the spectrum of the cliche;

"Golf and its architecture is a great big thing and there's room in it for everyone".

I've said that about 117 times on here but maybe you either missed it or more likely didn't understand what I mean by that. Neither would surprise me.   ;)

 

T.J. Sturges

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2003, 02:19:13 PM »
Ran is the Larry King of the golf architecure interview business (he don't fire no hard balls folks), so if these guys look at prior interviews, they wouldn't be thinking they were in for an ambush.

My whole point here is that those of you who have been at this site constantly for the last 3 or 4 years would, I think, be amazed at how different the tone is at this site (IMHO, from being gone for awhile).  There are Fazio fans here.  Why not get the "world's most famous golf architect" to commit to being interviewed for a website dedicated to citizens of this planet who are interested in his craft?

TS

PS:  Tommy, though I'd love to see your list of questions (we'll save that for a 2nd bottle of scotch), my point was not to turn this into a facetious interview.  I think we'd all really like to hear things from Mr. Fazio like: 1. How did he get interested in golf architecture? 2. What is his design philosphy? 3. Has being a member at Pine Valley influenced his design philosphy? 4.  How does he decide where to place bunkers and hazards? 5. What are his favorite courses (both his and others) and why?  Stuff like that.  
« Last Edit: August 21, 2003, 02:20:07 PM by T.J. Sturges »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions...
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2003, 02:40:41 PM »
Many of us who contribute to this site, work for a living. Let us assume that you are a dress designer and for a period of time there has been a group of critics that have vilified certain of your creations. Would you want to be interviewed by them, to discuss the philosophy and thought processes of your ouevre?

Frankly, if I was Rees Jones I would tell you to stick your invitation up the old fundamental orifice.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2003, 02:42:14 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I would agree that Ran should/would approach the interview on a fair and proper basis.  A roast, that some seem to want, would put an abrupt halt to future candidates.

With respect to your last question, I suspect that the generic answer from all three would be along the lines of, "that's what the client wanted".

TEPaul,

Perhaps you've forgotten the many posts over the last few years, but they have been fairly hostile when it comes to Fazio, Rees and Nicklaus.  You've also probably forgotten a few incidents, inlcuding the one at Newport, which didn't further GCA.com's goals in this regard.

Jamie Duffner,

I enjoy adopting an opposite point of view, hence I'm used to people not agreeing with me on certain discussions, but, if you'll review the history of this site, I think you could call its flavor toward those three ..... hostile, or at least non-friendly.

There is a history that you may not be familiar with.

TEPaul,

To refresh your memory, one moron suggested that Rees Jones courses don't make you think.  Okay, you say, that was one moron, but the fact that nobody on the site, other than myself, objected to that statement reflects the bias therein.

T.J. Sturges

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2003, 02:42:33 PM »
Don't sugercoat it Robert....tell us what you really think!

How are things @ MPCC?

TS

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions...
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2003, 02:51:43 PM »
Pat,

You wrote.

 "To refresh your memory, one moron suggested that Rees Jones courses don't make you think.  Okay, you say, that was one moron, but the fact that nobody on the site, other than myself, objected to that statement reflects the bias therein."

I must have missed that one, but would have responded with a biting riposte.

Ted,

MPCC's Shore Course awaits you, so far it looks quite stunning. I need another lesson re " feel all the fingers on the grip." It worked like a charm until I forgot all about it, now that your name has re-surfaced I'll try it again today.
 
 

ForkaB

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2003, 03:00:36 PM »
Bob/Ted

My grips have only some rubbery/plasticky stuff on them.  No fingers.  Am I missing out on some new fangled technology?

T.J. Sturges

Re:Opinions...
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2003, 03:33:58 PM »
RE:  The "feel all the fingers on the grip" tip

It is a Shivas Irons kind of a tip.  One I humbly offered to my good friend Mr. Huntley one beautiful afternoon @ MPCC and he didn't miss a shot the rest of that round.  As I recall, he broke 80 several consecutive rounds after that....am I right about that Robert?

TS

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions...
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2003, 05:51:11 PM »
Rarely have I seen one poster go head to head with Tom Doak in an agressive manner, with an agenda.
Tom enjoys "most favored nation" on this site.

I don't think that the same "climate" exists with N/F/J and any interaction would have a decidedly different tone and motives.

For someone on an undying quest to evaluate everything objectively according to the facts, you sure love to make pronouncements like this that are 100% your opinion.

I can recall several occasions when regular posters stated they didn't care for particular aspects of Tom's courses - I even recall one regular poster calling Quail Crossing a "dog track".

Furthermore, how do you know that Tom is not treated well by posters because he takes the time to post here?

How do you know his courses don't receive rave reviews simply because they are that damn good?

How do you know that everyone here has some hidden agenda against Rees, Fazio, et al?

These are all your opinion, not fact.

I've seen critical analysis of two of your so called favored nation architectural firms in the last two weeks alone.

If Rees & Fazio don't want to play with us here, fine, but your opinion as to why is your opinion, not fact. I have my own opinion as to why they do not participate & it has little to do with how I think they would be treated.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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