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Ken_Cotner

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2003, 01:52:23 PM »
Matt,

Also, your comment, that few of Fazios designs "have the complexity of design and strategic intangibles that are worthy of consideration for a top 100" begs a question.  Having not seen GN, I can't personally comment, but it sounds like you perceive that course to utilize strategic design principles in the final product.  My question is:  Why do you think he has not done more of that in his work?  Do you think he has some new team members that understand strategic design better than prior crews?  Do you think he is changing his design philosophy?  Do you think it all happens by chance at his courses?  

TS

Ted, this doesn't really address your questions, but have you played the River Course at Kiawah (a Fazio, I think) during any of your Charleston visits?  If so, what are your impressions of the course?  I've only played it once, but found plenty of angles, options, and some fun greens.

Ken

Matt_Ward

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2003, 04:24:25 PM »
Like I just said -- Darth Vader (MacWood) has spoken. The Jedi Council needs to unite against this ill-wind that blows in from the deep left field seats. ;D

TF does have a number of first rate courses -- it's just that the dark side wishes others to believe otherwise. Galloway National -- Ken Cotner's comments on the River Course are also well taken and I believe Glenwild is likely the best of the most recent openings that TF has done IMHO -- I also have to add that a quite few people have mentioned the qualities of Dallas National and from the pictures (shall I be so bold and decude things from just pictures???) it does look quite impressive.


Matt_Ward

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2003, 07:36:07 PM »
Tom:

My wife and I are heading out this weekend for furniture -- any recommendations on what type of couch to buy? I figured I go to the best source I know since you're quite comfortable sitting and not playing courses. Let me know -- by the way at least Jar Jar is on the side of the Force -- adios Lord Vader!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2003, 08:37:57 PM »
Tom MacWood,

It is such a weak-minded generalization....I grow weary of the constant stereotyping.

Same with Rees....95% of my criticism has been his renovation work...and I think I've been too easy on him. He is a menace to classic architecture.

Aren't you guilty of the same thing you object to ???

Would you say that Rees's work at Baltusrol, a classic course, has been very well received by those who have seen it ???

Or, is blind denial of good work necessary to continue your tired tirade ?

T_MacWood

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2003, 11:40:43 PM »
Matt
I'd go with a futon.

Pat
You are the same guy who praised his restorative work at Hollywood, Bethpage, Ridgewood and Quaker Ridge.....God's speed Baltusrol!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2003, 04:44:46 PM »
Tom MacWood,

How many times do you lie to yourself before you believe the lie ?

You know as well as I do that the memberships/owner of those clubs never directed Rees to undertake a restoration at any of those golf courses.

Why do you keep repeating that he failed to restore them when he was never given that assignment by the memberships ?

Is it to re-inforce the lie you're all to happy to perpetuate ?

If you want to be disengenuous or dishonest with yourself, that's okay, but don't be disengenuous or dishonest with the those viewing Golfclubatlas.com.

T_MacWood

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2003, 10:34:25 PM »
Good one Pat!

Whatever you want to call Rees's work at those courses, as someone who appreciates Tillinghast and Travis, I am disapointed that he chose to add his own personal touch. I know you are quite pleased with his redesign work on these courses....but I don't believe you have the same appreciation for Tillie and Travis...obviously.

I'm not an expert on mandates and really could care less....besides unless you are a member of one these courses it is only speculation (or heresay) as to what transpired...who wanted to do what and who recommened what...I prefer not speculate.

It can not be argued that Rees Jones has been involved in a large number of redesigns of classic courses (mandate or no mandate)...you don't see it as a problem (an outspoken defender), I do.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2003, 10:35:21 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2003, 04:45:40 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Since I'm quite friendly with the project chairman, green chairman, some of the officers, board members and members at Hollywood, I"m not speculating, I know what the directives were.

And, as much as you and I might have liked to have had the golf course restored, it was never going to happen.
The diverse membership was never interested in returning the golf course to its punitive, former form.

Perhaps the easiest way to convey a "sense" of the membership revolves around the third hole, a good par 4.
There is a tree that was planted to the left and short of the green, it interferes with play to the green from the left side, and rough has been allowed to grow out underneath it into the fairway preventing a ground approach through this rough.

Rees wanted to eliminate the tree and intrusive rough, returning the hole to its original play, but his suggestion was rejected.  There was a movement to save the tree, for reasons which totally escape me, that prevailed.

Other members, including members who originally came to the club as tennis members, created other barriers.

You seem to labor under the false notion that all clubs want to restore their golf course.

You have to ask yourself, how did all the changes that took place over the many years since the golf course opened, happen in the first place ?  Rees certainly wasn't involved.
The membership/leadership just changed them, sometimes with and sometimes without an architect.

A club, like Hollywood, may feel that the course needs to be modernized in order to remain a fair test for its members and for competitions.  I know that Hollywood felt that their 18th hole was a weak finishing hole, and wanted to improve it, which they did.

Architects are rarely invited into existing clubs and given carte blanche, usually they are invited in because the membership or leadership wants to make changes, and the architect is the professional hired to transition those changes from ideas into reality.  Architects cannot take it upon themselves to restore the golf course, irrespective of the memberships intentions.

It's interesting that you have always been on Rees's case about his failing to complete restorations, irrespective of the memberships directives,  but willing to overlook Tom Doak's failure to restore GCGC and C&C's failure to restore Riviera.

Inconsistency ???   Bias ???

I wouldn't mind if your objections were directed equally to all architects who were involved with courses that didn't embark on restorations, but you've been silent with respect to C&C and Tom Doak for as long as I've tuned in to GCA.com.
So, I have to wonder, what your motives and goals are ?

When you bash Tom Doak and C&C for their failures to restore, irrespective of the memberships wishes, just like you've bashed Rees, then at least you will have been open and fair minded.

Lastly Tom, surely you must realize, that those of us who want restorations are clearly in the minority.

Just look at how hard it is to remove trees planted in the last
20-30-40-50 years, a form of restoration, and then extend that resistance to restoration to the balance of the golf course.

It's not always the architect's doing, in the ultimate, it's the will of the membership/leadership that is at the heart of the issue.

But, if you want to continue to bash, just make sure that you're an equal opportunity basher.   ;D

T_MacWood

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2003, 07:39:05 PM »
There is a difference in my view between what didn't occur at Riviera (weren't they hired to rebuild the greens?) and Rees adding his personal touches at Hollywood and Bethapge. You equate failing to restore (for whatever reason) and redesigning over a great old course (Hollywood, East Lake, Bethpage, etc.). My major complaint with RJ is not his failure to restore, but his readiness to alter and redesign.

As far GCGC is concerned I have stated more than once that I have no idea why Doak added the new greenside bunkers on the 17th...they don't appear to be a part of the original Travis course.

But on the flip side Doak's positive ledger includes restoration work at Holston Hills, Yeaman's Hall, Camargo, Valley Club, Pasatiempo, Shuttle Meadow, Shoreacres, Ekwanok and Cape Arundel. Compared to Rees redesign work at East Lake, Sea Island, CC of Virginia, Equinox, Congressional, Medinah, Bethpage, Hollywood, Monerey Pens. and Baltusrol. On ballance there is no comparision...would you agree? One specializes in restoring classic golf courses...the other specializes in redesigning classic courses...whatever was or wasn't their mandate.

There is no disgrace in liking or defending Rees's redsign work...as I said I have great appreciation for Travis and Tillinghast, and Flynn, Alison, MacKenzie, Raynor etc....you obviously don't share that appreciation.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 09:48:45 AM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2003, 08:05:11 PM »
Tom MacWood,

You cite Baltusrol again, without one scintilla of personal experience in what the course looked like pre and post Rees.
You are so far off base on this that it makes me question your conclusions with respect to other courses I haven't seen.

Apparently lost on your thick head is the mission each club wanted to embark upon.

Those that wanted restoration pursued restoration.
Those that wanted to go in another direction went in another direction, and that has nothing to do with the architect, it's the choice each club made before they even retained an architect.

How many of each of the courses that you cite, have you actually seen and played, pre and post work ?

Without prior information, you couldn't walk/play Baltusrol and tell me what was changed, what's out of character, and that's the real test, isn't it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 10:14:24 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

GeoffreyC

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2003, 10:11:53 PM »
Didn't Tom Doak redesign 3 greens at SFGC?  Holes 13-15 are still not restored at SFGC.  Where is the restoration?

There are dozens of bunkers at Yeamons Hall that are not yet restored. When they are, the course will be much improved from its current state.

Comments?

T_MacWood

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2003, 10:54:38 PM »
Pat
It is ironic that every project Rees has been involved has had a mission other than restoration...a coincedence? I think not...no one hires Rees to restore...he amkes no bones that his specialty is redesign.

You telling me I couldn't recognize changes to Baltusrol or any other course is humorous...recognizing an architect's work or unique style has never strcuk me as one your strenghts....or interests....no?

GeoffreyC

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2003, 11:01:38 PM »
Tom

I never mentioned Rees at all.  Where did I mention Rees?  I'm not a FAN of any architect. I appreciate well designed golf courses and enjoy the game played over them.

You are an extreme advocate of sensitive restoration to courses as they were when the architect built them are you not?  ???

Therefore I was just pointing out that three SFGC greens were significantly altered as a major departure from the way Tillinghast designed them.  This therefore is NOT restoration as you so often advocate here with regard to many other courses.  If you were ever in the clubhouse and seen the old 8th green it was a wild and wonderful thing.  It is GONE forever. Not restoration.  Mind you, I don't blame Tom Doak at all as apparently his instructions were to soften the greens.  Similarly, the 13th to 15th holes are not Tillinghast originals yet all the land is there to restore them.  13-15 are clearly the weakest holes on the course. Should Tom Doak have altered those three greens?  What's the difference between forever changing three greens from changing some bays and capes in the shapiing of some bunkers.  One changes the playability significantly while the other is only an aesthetic change.  Which is worse?


Similarly, dozens of bunkers at Yeamons remain to be reclaimed. The course is significantly weaker because they are missing. If you were to "document changes" to Yeamons Hall using a very old aerial and one taken post-Doak restoration you would note numerous differences.  Isn't that what you did at Bethpage, Baltusrol and the like?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 11:07:05 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

GeoffreyC

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2003, 11:22:52 PM »
Tom- just because you say something doesn't make it true by a long shot.  And you are wrong big time once again. I am a fan of NO architect regardless of how many times you might say it over and over. You are arrogent and full of crap with regard to this  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(  >:(

Have you seen pictures of the old greens at SFGC?  Particularly #8 but others as well.  Have you been to SFGC? Those greens currently look nothing like those old pictures.  They were not restored they were altered.  That's a redesign in my book.

Answer the questions I posed to you about documenting changes. You are supposed to be an advocate of maintaining the full integrity of classic courses.  That is your supposed calling card here but it seems you are hypocritical in how you apply your interest in preservation. It is you who are the fan and it alters your judgement.

GeoffreyC

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2003, 11:44:22 PM »
Tom

Your still full of shit with your fan garbage.  Saying it again doesn't make it true.

If all you do is sit in your couch and document changes from old aerials and after restorations you would be able to note numerous differences between YH when it was built and YH after Doak got there.  That's all you seem to do yet you pass judgement only in very selective situations.  You're biased.  Now if I continue to repeat it over and over like you have with the fan reference will it become true too?  Again answer teh question- Where did I EVER compare Yeamons Hall with Bethpage?  Show me?  Where did I mention Rees here in this discussion?  You brought it up.

Have you been to SFGC?  Have you seen the work done there in person or by photos?  If not then why are you so quick to endorse that work?  

Don't blame me here or call me a fan of anyone.  All I'm doing is documenting your comments on restorations!

GeoffreyC

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2003, 09:03:47 AM »
Tom MacWood

I thought SFGC was fantastic and Tom Doak did everything asked of him with his usual care.  Where did you get the idea that I didn't like the work.

Tom I was simply DOCUMENTING CHANGES made to classic courses.   ;)

Given your history of demanding faithful restoration and preservation and your use of photographic documentation to compare changes to courses by using old aerials and aerials and or photos post-restoration I simply posted a comment on SFGC and YH and asked for comments (by anyone not just directed to you).  Based on what are apparently your criteria for some work on classic courses those two courses are not restored. I want consistency regardless of what course it is or who did the work.

At SFGC three greens are forever changed for Tillinghast's vision of what they were to be. That's not restoration.  Oakmont didn't do this because they apparently want to preserve the soul of their course. Be consistent with regard to changes.  

At Yeamon's Hall many greens were rebuilt.  Are you sure they were rebuilt the way Raynor had them originally?  They are "in style" to be sure and Tom Doak should be credited for that much but there could have been some "creative interpretation".  Finally, the strategies of playing the course (especially the front 9) aare highly altered due to absence of numerous bunkers. That's not restored either. When those bunkers are put back (if they ever are) the course will be much the better. Everyone talks like YH is restored (finished) successfully.  Not the case. Be consistent Tom.

Finally, I'm glad you admit to being biased.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2003, 09:30:43 AM »
But on the flip side Doak's positive ledger includes restoration work at Holston Hills, Yeaman's Hall, Camargo, Valley Club, Pasatiempo, Shuttle Meadow, Blue Mound, Shoreacres, Ekwanok and Cape Arundel. Compared to Rees redesign work at East Lake, Sea Island, CC of Virginia, Equinox, Congressional, Medinah, Bethpage, Hollywood, Monerey Pens. and Baltusrol. On ballance there is no comparision...would you agree? One specializes in restoring classic golf courses...the other specializes in redesigning classic courses...whatever was or wasn't their mandate.


Tom,

Above you mention Blue Mound as one of Doak's positives.  I am guessing that you have never seen the course (Pre or post Doak).  I do not think you want to mention it.  From my understanding, Doak made several changes and then the project was discontinued.  The largest and most obvious change (The restoration of the Biarritz) was not done (Either because Doak did not want to or the membership would not let him).  

Doak's work at Blue Mound to date is pretty trivial.  If he is given the money and a free hand, I am certain that he will do a fantastic job but for now, he has made no material impact on the course and it is still in desperate need of a restoration.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2003, 09:50:08 AM »
Gentlemen:

Last I checked this thread was started on how well done a particular Tom Fazio layout (Glenwild) turned out. Hijacking this thread to the same BS over and over again (much of it courtesy of Mr. MacWood is useless and frankly idiotic).

Tom Fazio is often ridiculed by quite a few people here on GCA because his "look" of courses is predictable in their opinion. However, many of these same people have played only a tiny sampling but somehow are able to extrapolate that Fazio is only capable of designing such repetitive layouts. Quite the contrary.

Clearly, there is a preference (the PC word instead of bias) and I quite agree with Geoff -- I rate golf courses not architects but some people see it the other way around. No matter.

Tom Fazio and his group is quite capable in breaking out of the mold of just "eye candy" layouts with their pre-packaged assembly of "been there -- done that" holes. Glenwild in Utah is a superb layout and one of the finest I have played from his portoflio and as I said before if others can secure an invite it's well worth their time to play.

T_MacWood

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2003, 10:25:11 AM »
Geoffrey
I'll strive for more consistancy.  :)

In the past my major concerns have been changes to significant designs where for whatever reason the architect has chosen to add touches or interpretations of his own--courses like Equinox, Hollywood, Bethpage, East Lake, Riviera, ANGC, CC of Detroit, Oyster Harbors, Aronomink, Sea Island, Seminole, Michigan, Dornick Hills, Columbia and Old Town.

I do believe softening and rebuilding greens is a mistake...especially if the greens are healthy, well maintained putting surfaces. If the slopes are too severe slow down the green speeds.

By the way are you certain Tillinghast designed the greens at SFGC?

What exactly did Doak do at YH? I understand there were a number of cross bunkers that were not restored....I would not equate bunkers not restored with completely new bunkers added by an architect...a la Hollywood, Equinox, Bethpage and East Lake or the butchering of bunkers...a la Columbia, Riviera, Michigan or Yale. Apples and oranges IMO.

David
I took Blue Mound off...but it doesn't change my basic premiss, Doak is known for his sensative restoration work and Rees is known for his redesign work.

The few Raynor plans I have seen....it appears he planned the front section as fairway, not green. Are you certain Raynor planned the front section as green at BM?

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2003, 10:50:30 AM »

David
I took Blue Mound off...but it doesn't change my basic premiss, Doak is known for his sensative restoration work and Rees is known for his redesign work.

The few Raynor plans I have seen....it appears he planned the front section as fairway, not green. Are you certain Raynor planned the front section as green at BM?

Tom,

I am not certain (Obviously I never met Raynor) but from their Centenial book, the pictures I saw appeared to be all green.  It was in the early 40's that they changed it.  Remove the word sensitive and I agree with your premise of the last post.  Doak is known for restoration and Rees for renovation.  The GCA crowd is so bias towards restoration that even a sensitive renovation designed strictly to keep the course relevant gets bashed.

One last note (And I am sure that you know this), your post below could be read as Rees who ripped the soul out of Michigan.  Rees never set foot on Michigan.  Art Hills destroyed it.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

GeoffreyC

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2003, 11:34:23 AM »
Tom- I actually agree with nearly everything you said in your last post.

I was just documenting changes not passing judgement. I was using what I believed to be your criteria of comparing a newly opened course with one immediately after the restoration project was ended.

To answer your questions-

I don't really know who built the greens at SFGC but they sure do resemble what I know Tillinghast built at other courses of his that I've played (WFW, WFE, QR, Fenway, Five Farms, Phil. Cricket among many others).  If I had to bet my own $$ I'd much sooner bet that he didn't design and build the greens at Bethpage before I would at SFGC. There are some really interesting greens at SFGC.

I'd equate not rebuilding/restoring numerous bunkers as affecting play equally with added bunkering.  Both can also be corrected at the will of the membership if adequate documentation is available.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 11:35:37 AM by Geoffrey Childs »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2003, 12:05:57 PM »
Tom,

You mentioned Rees Jones and his work at MPCC. I am not sure when you last played there, but I can assure you the original was not Raynor's best work. For Jones to have 'restored' the Dunes course would have been a waste of time and money. Some twenty years ago, with a persimmon driver and 43 inch steel shaft, my partner in the Invitational, drove the green on the old 5th,11th and 16th holes. When hired, Rees agreed to do what the Committee wanted and he did, on time, under budget and gave us a vastly improved golf course.

T_MacWood

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2003, 01:07:45 PM »
Bob
It has been a long time, and the course had seen better days. I would characterize the original MPCC as a Raynor design with Robert Hunter bunkering (quite a combination)--something IMO worthy of restoration.

Geoffrey
I do not equate the two.

Once you set the precident...like Oakland Hills, ANGC, Bel-Air, Scioto, Inverness, Oak Hill, Equinox, Congressional, Firestone, East Lake, Crooked Stick, etc....the chances of going back are slim (and none).

Old conservative clubs who have lost bunkers over the years are much more likely to be restored at some later date....Fox Chapel, Camargo, GCGC, Oakmont, Shoreacres, CPC, Indian Creek, Franklin Hills, etc.

If given the choice...Rulewich rebuild or Rulewich do nothing, I'd opt for do nothing.

Even if they can both be corrected at a later date....certainly the architects come in with two very different attitudes about the original work and the importance of preserving it IMO.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 01:08:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2003, 01:13:35 PM »
Tom MacWood,


I am biased, I do believe Doak has been one of the few that strives for sensative/accurate restoration and I do believe that Rees has shown a general disregard for classic courses....

Would you tell me how Tom Doak strived for a sensitive restoration at Atlantic City ??

How convenient for you to forget this project.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Beauty and the Beast
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2003, 01:28:12 PM »
Tom MacWood,



You telling me I couldn't recognize changes to Baltusrol or any other course is humorous...recognizing an architect's work or unique style has never strcuk me as one your strenghts....or interests....no?

I'll match my eye in the field, to yours, any day of the week.

Understanding that you're the expert on golf courses you've never even seen, pre and post project work.

Have you been to and seen Hollywood, Bethpage, Ridgewood, Atlantic City, or Baltusrol pre and post project work ????

You responded to Bob Huntley, that in your opinion, MPCC was worthy of a restoration effort.  That's nice.
How did the members feel and vote on your opinion ???
They rejected it, opting for a different project, which they are very satisfied with.

Why aren't you vociferous in your objections to what Tom Doak did at Atlantic City, or what C&C didn't do at Riviera ?

In your opinion, should both clubs have embarked upon restorations ???

If so, why don't you take the architects to task as you're so willing to do with Rees when club retain him to do other than restoration work ?

You certainly don't apply your alleged principles fairly or universally.  They would seem architect related.
But, then again, you did state that you were BIASED.

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