[David Wigler]

A lot of time has been spent here debating Fazio's ability to create strategic golf courses and to challenge the better player.  I think even his most ardent detractors admit that he is an absolute master at golf course beatification and making visually appealing holes.  When he combines that mastery with a dedicated attempt to incorporate strategy and penalty, he builds courses that are spectacular.  Victoria National comes to mind as one such course.  I just played another -- Glenwild G.C. in Park City, Utah.

WOW!!

The course is at high elevation and plays with a base wind of 10+ mph (Over 20 when I played).  It is 7,523 yards from the Blue tees with a course and slope of 75.7/136.  The routing is simple and elegant for the site and the course has a thriving caddy program.  Fazio (And he is the best alive at this) hid his cart paths beautifully and they never disturb the eye.  

Many of the holes are worth discussing:

#2 is Fazio's first use of a meandering creek that wanders through the course and sets up a wonderful second shot into a tight green with two death bunkers in the front.

#3 is a 618-yard par five with perfectly placed fairway cross-bunkers.  Challenging the bunkers allows for a second shot into the green (Downhill, downwind).  An unsuccessful attempt, forces a lay-up decision with a cross hazard at 170 yards.

#10 is one of the best risk/reward par fours I have played.  It is 312 to the front of the green (Downhill, downwind at elevation) a pond sits in front.  Our group hit five iron, three iron, 3-wood, Driver.  Fazio built a fantastic bail out left for the safe shot.

#12 probably had the best second shot on the course.  It is a short par four.  The longer your tee ball went, the more severe your lie with a green that is fronted and slopes into a pond.

The course finishes with a 638 yard uphill par five that is an absolute beast, then a 245 yard par three with a gorgeous river and pond fronting the green (A chance for Fazio to again show off why he is the unquestioned master at creating eye candy). #18 is a 498-yard par four, cape hole.  Sure, this is done at many courses, but Fazio is really good at it and the presentation is perfect.  I know that not many people get to Utah.  If you do, this course is a cannot miss!

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Speak of Fazio...

http://www.travelgolf.com/departments/editorials/fazio-top-courses.htm

[Joe Hancock]

Mr.Wigler,

If you are back in Michigan, I believe we have some unfinished business to attend to on...any...golf course!

Glad you enjoyed the Glenwild GC...and thanks for the "unbiased" report!

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

David:

We agree once again!

I played Glenwild in late June and the course is as you descibe a superb track and one of the very best that TF has ever produced.

The demands are high octane type stuff and although the opening holes are a bit tame -- not lame by any means mind you -- the game really starts at the uphill par-4 5th and by time you hit the back nine you know you're playing a tiger (no pun intended) of a design.

Without question it is the best course in Utah and likely one of the 3-4 best you can play in the Mountain Time Zone IMHO.

Quick correction -- the 18th can play at a max of nearly 520 yards and the trio of closing holes is definitely a winning combination.

Tom Fazio, besides Rees Jones, is a favorite whipping boy on GCA. Anyone venturing to the Park City area will see a golf course that is more than just the eyecandy stuff many associate with TF. It's a winner and I would certainly add it to my personal top 100.

P.S. David -- do you also happen to play Pete Dye's new layout at Promontort? How about Thanksgiving Point in nearby Lehi?

[THuckaby2]

Matt Ward:

Is there anywhere in this country that you haven't played?

You continue to amaze.  

TH

[T.J. Sturges]

David,

I have played several rounds at Victoria National and I enjoy playing there.  It is probably my favorite of the Fazio courses I have played.  However, I believe it is a stretch to say he employed strategic design principles at VN.  In analyzing this interesting course, I can come up with only 4 or 5 holes that I believe present the golfer with strategic options (2,3!,4,9,13...and 2 and 4 are a bit of a stretch to call "strategic").  If you have played VN these holes will be clear to you.  Having not played the new course you describe here, can you put up any pictures of holes that present the golfer with strategic options?  And...on how many holes did you feel Mr. Fazio's team utilized strategic design principles?

TS

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Have clubs will travel ...

By the way I wish I could be in New Mexico when the gang's there -- I can't wait to hear the feedback on Black Mesa (simply delicious stuff!) and Paa-Ko Ridge. Unfortunately, I'm off to Ireland and Wales with my wife.

P.S. Utah is clearly making some noise on the course front.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

You have a very good excuse to miss our NM gig.  VERY good.  VERY VERY good.  

TH

[David Wigler]

Matt,

Glad we agree, it is far easier that way.  Unfortunately, I only had time for one round.  I am looking at the card right now.  The distances from 14 to 18 were 467 (4), 449 (4), 633 (5), 245 (3), 498 (4).  Each hole had a shot where a properly executed shot would run forever and a penalty area.  I thought it was brilliant and agree completely on the personal top 100 (In fact, personal top 50 - GW between 50 - 100 modern).

TJ - Victoria National has been debated ad nausem on this site.  I do not want to sidetrack this thread.  I have played it four times and find it very challenging, strategic, thought provoking and wonderful.  Suffice it to say we disagree.  Unfortunately, I did not bring a camera to Glenwild.  Going through the course book, I would say strategy was relevant on 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18.  Hope you get a chance to play it.

Mr. Hancock, I am available this week and next.  Give me a call or send me an e-mail and let's set it up.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

If you notice the yardage book you will see the extension of the back tee for the 18th is there but th eyardage is quoted from the next tee box up.

I played with one of the assistant professionals who can crack it out there a good ways and we played from the tips. Let me also mention that the uphill dog-leg left 6th hole is also a winner and quite demanding. It makes the 10th at Castle Pines look like a drive and wedge hole.

I enjoyed the 10th hole but I am not that big a fan as
you are. There is way too much room to the left for easy bailouts - making the hole a bit narrower on that side as you go deeper downthe fairway would have been more prudent.

The following two holes are quite good -- the downhill 11th is well done and it's easy to misclub. The short par-4 12th is also good as you describe.

The issue I have with many anti-TF people here on GCA is that they have such a small sampling of courses that they have played. They look at Pelican Hill and quite rightly decry it but the issue becomes one of applying the broad brush to all his work.

Glenwild suffers no fools. There's enough details with the putting greens (the contours on several of them are outstanding) and TF does give the longer hitter enough room to flex the musce -- provided you positionit properly.

David -- did you play Promontory while you were out there? What about Thanksgiving Point in nearby Lehi?

One last thing for all those anti-TF folks -- clearly the man or his team at Glenwild has the capability in designing more than eye-candy lite style courses. I'm not weighing in regarding his inability to do real restoration work but Glenwild is a must play course for any person lucky to swing an invite.

[David Wigler]

Matt,

I played with Mick (He is one of the professionals as well).  We were in a match with a couple of college kids up there for a tournament.  We defintiely played the tips.  I wonder if I played it further back than I thought.  I was on a business trip and only had time for one round so Glenwild is the only course I have played in Utah.  

Mick played 14, 15, and 16 5-under par.  The holes measure 467, 449, 633.  That means he played 1,549 yards of golf course in 8 shots (He holed out a 7-iron on 15 and a wedge on 16 for eagle's).  I have never before seen back to back hole out eagles.  We shot a best ball 29 on the back and waxed the college kids.

You are right about the criticism of Fazio.  We are both blessed with travel and access.  It is hard to justify blanket criticism when Fazio's body of work includes Victoria National, Shadow Creek, Flint Hills National, Pine Barrens, Glenwild, Wade Hampton, Estancia, Querencia and so many other quality works.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Not hold on good buddy!

The issue with Wade Hampton is that it cuts a great picture but the turf is perpetually wet with all the rain that comes in the Cashiers area.

I like Estancia too but it's not in the same league with Glenwild regarding strategic elements. From a conditioning perspective you can't argue with the fact that Estancia day-to-day is no less in turf quality than Augusta, Double Eagle or any other course for that matter.

While I like Shadow Creek for what man can accomplish over nature I have to wonder if the course from a strategic and memorable on-course perspective is as good as many wax on about. If you want to see strategic elements in a natural setting that points Shadow Creek to shame then venture to Mesquite and play Wolf Creek IMHO.

TF has done some solid work -- I would say many people have never played Galloway National in the greater Atlantic City area and I can say with some sort of confidence that it's among my best 10 TF designs I have played. However, it gets sooooooo little attention although Golf Magazine did rate the course among the top 100 in the USA.

The issue for TF IMHO is why he doesn't follow the lead of what he did at Glenwild. It can be done clearly. The more salient question is -- why it isn't?

P.S. Next time you're in the Beehive State play Promontory and jump over to Lehi and play Thanksgiving Point. Both are very good although clearly a notch below Glenwild in overall greatness IMHO.

[David Wigler]

David:

Not hold on good buddy!

The issue with Wade Hampton is that it cuts a great picture but the turf is perpetually wet with all the rain that comes in the Cashiers area.

I like Estancia too but it's not in the same league with Glenwild regarding strategic elements. From a conditioning perspective you can't argue with the fact that Estancia day-to-day is no less in turf quality than Augusta, Double Eagle or any other course for that matter.

While I like Shadow Creek for what man can accomplish over nature I have to wonder if the course from a strategic and memorable on-course perspective is as good as many wax on about. If you want to see strategic elements in a natural setting that points Shadow Creek to shame then venture to Mesquite and play Wolf Creek IMHO.

TF has done some solid work -- I would say many people have never played Galloway National in the greater Atlantic City area and I can say with some sort of confidence that it's among my best 10 TF designs I have played. However, it gets sooooooo little attention although Golf Magazine did rate the course among the top 100 in the USA.

Matt,

You and I have discussed Shadow and I disagree.  I think Shadow is incredible.  I disagree with no other comment above.  The point I was getting at is that the Fazio basher contingent is unbelievably penal against even his good work.  Accepting every comment you made above as truth (Except for Shadow) tell me honestly that there is not a single architect working today who would not be proud to say that their design portfolio included Estancia, Wade Hampton, Flint Hills National, Pine Barrens and Querencia; let alone Glenwild, Galloway or Victoria National.  When Fazio is on his game, very few if any are better.  When Fazio is good, his work is very good.  The criticism of his lesser work like Pelican is valid, although Pelican would still be the second best course in Art Hills portfolio and then best in many others.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

I hear what you're saying but there are quite a few TF designs that overdose on the visual and the eye-candy and offer sometime a lite design from a strategic perspective.

Just compare the meat and muscle of Glenwild to the ones you just named. Very few can match up. The question I have is why can't TF do more of the work you and I saw at Glenwild.

Too much of his previous designs have focused on the pro forma tried and true "happy meal" approach. If it works for one developer then simply cut and paste more of the same for someone else. Many developers don't know and the others frankly can care less so long as the real estate sells which a Fazio designed course seems to guarantee in most instances.

I do like Shadow Creek but you need to play Wolf Creek in nearby Mesquite to see a transformation that goes one step beyond what was done on the desert floor.

Just remember this -- you've named plenty of TF designs that are high octane private club status symbols. Few of them really have the complexity of design and strategic intangibles that are worthy of consideration for a top 100 IMHO. Fire away when ready.

P.S. More people need to play Galloway National to appreciate what TF can do.

[T.J. Sturges]

Matt,

Haven't seen Galloway National.  What part of the country is that course in?  Also, your comment, that few of Fazios designs "have the complexity of design and strategic intangibles that are worthy of consideration for a top 100" begs a question.  Having not seen GN, I can't personally comment, but it sounds like you perceive that course to utilize strategic design principles in the final product.  My question is:  Why do you think he has not done more of that in his work?  Do you think he has some new team members that understand strategic design better than prior crews?  Do you think he is changing his design philosophy?  Do you think it all happens by chance at his courses?  

TS

[GeoffreyC]

Ted

I can't answer the second part of your question about why the Fazio team doesn't do more strategic and complex/interesting courses but I can your first.

Galloway National is near Atlantic City, New Jersey close to the water and the bugs/flying insects  

Its the best Fazio course I've played including Victoria National (one you know) by a good bit in my opinion. It has excellent angles of play, challenging bunkering and green contours. Check the archives as GN has been discussed here (with photos I believe) before.

[Matt_Ward]

Mr. Sturges:

No need to repeat what Geoff has already mentioned. In case you didn't already know it Galloway National is located just outside of Atlantic City and the issue of bugs has been with the club since it opened. When the wind comes out of the east on the bay side you will need an EPA suit to play the course and that isn't hyperbole.

The issue I have with TF is that the ability to do the things that take a course to the next level can certainly be done. You do have interesting angles and green contours that put pressure on the player to begin thinking at the tee.

Too many of the high profile TF designs I have played are simply cookie-cutter courses that max out on all the bogus features (waterfalls, huge sprawling traps that have no meaning, etc, etc) and little else is tied together. I can't explain it but clearly there is talent with TF to do some superb designs.

Let me also mention Karsten Creek in Oklahoma which held this year's NCAA Division I championship and is also a well done layout IMHO. How the layout escapes notice is understandable since too many people max out on Southern Hills and Oak Tree Golf Club when in the state.

To be fair you have to also wonder if the clients that TF has had really want more than just the same pro forma happy meal designs he has delivered for other clients in the past. The agenda for developers is simple -- sell homes and TF has been a willing and positive factor in accomplishing that goal. How can one minimize the fact that TF and his employees are reaping windfalls from being constantly asked to do another developer's project. I don't doubt that architectural "purity" or "imagination" can be sacrificed for the expediency of taking care of the client but there's no doubt that TF can create special layouts worthy of top 100 consideration -- in my mind, Glenwild, Galloway National, Karsten Creek, are just three that come to mind.

Getting back to Glenwild I was thoroughly impressed with the nature of how TF used the tight property configuration for a winning routing forumla. I only wish some of the anti-TF folks here on GCA would expand their horizon and courses of his that they have played in order to see what I and David are saying.

Mr. Sturges -- I agree that a good bit of modern design is nothing more than pedestrian stuff -- but you would be wise to sample those that are different from the rest. Some of it is certainly worth playing wherever it may be located.

 

[T.J. Sturges]

Geoffrey,

I seem to be no good at checking the archives.  If you (or anyone else) could post the link to the pictures of Galloway National, I'd be most appreciative.

THX,

TS

[GeoffreyC]

Ted

I couldn't find what I remembered on this site using the search feature.  Maybe it was before the new software.  Ran promised all the old stuff we liked so much would be reinstated.  I hope so as lots of those discussions were the essence of what GCA is about.

Here is the Galloway National website.  There are photos although I've seen much better ones. I don't remember if I took any myself but I will post some if they are at hoem.

http://www.gallowaynationalgolf.com/page/7-131.htm

[T.J. Sturges]

Their website has decent photos of every hole.  I will definitely make it a point to go and play there.  The bunkering in the photos was unlike anything I've seen from Mr. Fazio.  How old is this course?  

TS

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I will be interested to see the new Crabapple Course at Capitol City Club in Atlanta area on TV when it hosts the American Express World Championship in early October.

I just played there this week and it was wonderful.  Again I am sure many Fazio haters would dispise it perfect condtioning and the astetics that he has designed into it, but the strategic lines of play were great.

Also I am looking forward to seeing how those tour boys handle that thick bermuda rough that is already (5 weeks out) unbelievable.

[T_MacWood]

Turboe
Back to back posts....first referencing Rees bashers...this one Fazio haters...you're on a roll....I say go for the trifecta.

[David Wigler]

Turboe
Back to back posts....first referencing Rees bashers...this one Fazio haters...you're on a roll....I say go for the trifecta.

Tom,

Lay off Turboe on this.  Matt and I started the bend towards wishing those who dislike and categorize all of Fazio's work would see this course.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Forget trying to convince Tom -- he has been lost to the dark side of The Force!

[T_MacWood]

It is such a weak-minded generalization....I grow weary of the constant stereotyping. There is no such animal. I like VN and Forest Creek...I'm not crazy about Sand Ridge. Some like Shadow Creek...like Tommy...but he hates Pelican Hill. Some like Galloway, but hate Black Diamond. Many of Fazio's greatest supporters think Wade Hampton is overrated. Same with Flint Hills. Sand Barrens gets almost universal support. And so on. There are opinions all over the lot. The majority of the criticism revolves around his renovation work...that and his book. Same with Rees....95% of my criticism has been his renovation work...and I think I've been too easy on him. He is a menace to classic architecture.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()