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Ran Morrissett

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Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« on: August 17, 2003, 06:37:57 PM »
Many of us demand (or at least hope :D) that our favorite architects of today will spend weeks upon weeks on site, incorporating the subtlest features as provided by nature into the final design.

How do we reward such modern architects? Course critics (of which we are all) rush around a course one time and then  deliver a final verdict in no uncertain terms on the course. Rarely are remarks tempered - just go see the general comments section underneath the course profiles to see what I mean.

We spend four hours against the architect's hundreds of hours and yet, we seem perfectly comfortably in making a definitive proclamation as to a course's worth. All has been revealed to us, so great are we.

Conversely, maybe that's not exactly right and perhaps a little more discretion is in order from course critics ??? though where is the fun in that  :D

Then again perhaps architects really should just focus on building big obvious features that smack critics in the face?  :-[

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 17, 2003, 06:38:34 PM by Ran Morrissett »

brad_miller

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Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2003, 07:12:29 PM »
Ran, I feel that I have come a long way in the past 2 years, ie the ability to play a course and begin to appreciate the architectural features and such. Having been lucky enough to play many of the worlds best prior to my awakening sure helped.

I still find it quite difficult to make anything but broad comments till I have played some of the worlds best MORE THAN ONCE. I find I need at least 3-4 plays, hopefully under different conditions to truely grasp what it has taken HOURS for the architect to create. But alass, there are those that feel they can make diffinative judgements after just one play.
Yes I do believe there is a short list of those that can, but this list is in fact quite short IMHO, and yes Ran you are one.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2003, 07:51:00 PM »
Ran,

How about critics who spend no time at the course ?

How about critics who have never actually seen or played the course.

Don't leave them out.   ;D

GeoffreyC

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2003, 09:58:44 PM »
My dear Ran

Respectfully, you are full of poop!  ::)

"Course critics (of which we are all) rush around a course one time and then  deliver a final verdict in no uncertain terms on the course."

"Then again perhaps architects really should just focus on building big obvious features that smack critics in the face?"

Everyone has different tastes and preferences be it food, wine, women or golf courses.  Hopefully, our preferences are molded on the basis of an ongoing learning process. They evolve as we experience more and learn.  I don't see "final verdicts" instead I see preferences that may or may not change in the future.

The second quote is a less then subtle  :) reference to disagreements over Hidden Creek.  Perhaps you think it an insult to suggest that it is a strong candidate for the Golfweek top 100 modern list but I do not.  It is my opinion and perhaps that will change but my preference for Kingsley Club will almost certainly not.  You can respect that preference or not.

Pat- now that's way too much to ask.  ;D


T_MacWood

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2003, 10:05:26 PM »
Personally I'm thrilled to have played a number of special courses just once. But after playing many courses under differing conditions (good and bad) you become sensitive to the limitations of one visit. Based on that realization I believe it is wise to pick the brains of regular (and respected) golfers of the given course to get an idea of how it can play under optimum conditions (and not so optimum conditions). Based on that imput, your experiences and your powers of observation, I believe you can appreciate a good design even under less than optimum conditions and/or a single visit. But because it is only one visit, the wise man will allow for an opinion to change.

IMO there is a lack of thoughtful criticism in the major media....possibly a result of advertising pressures and architecture not being given much space. But the problem Ran describes is evident when you have someone who claims to be an expert/critic and presents their personal opinions as gospel...instead of one man's perspective. As an example Ran will often express his opinion of a course and then ask what do you think...understanding the subjective nature of golf architecture, agree or disagree, everyone has a slightly different take. Matt Ward on the other hand will tell us what the bottom line is on a course....case closed.

TEPaul

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2003, 10:14:22 PM »
Nah, no course critic needs to be held to a similar standard as the course's architect. There's only one architect and the course is there to stay for any and all to come and play and form whatever opinion on it they choose. The only standard a critic's opinion needs to be held to is whether other critics think his opinon is full of crap or not!

TEPaul

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2003, 10:25:17 PM »
I spent a few hours slowly going through the holes of Stonewall North the other day. I can tell you I've never played the course (will soon enough) so I don't really know it's playability (it does need the time for maturing and growing in and conditioning) but I feel confident I have a good enough eye on architecture to be able to tell in a few hours on the course that it'll be fun and interesting to play, without question. And there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the architecture of the course is interesting in many ways--some of the best looking bunkering I've ever seen, fascinating green surfaces, some interesting hole mid-bodies and hazard featuring etc, etc. I haven't exactly settled on my feeling of the entire routing, though, and there's a hole or two that I can tell would make me feel uncomfortable on the course playing it.

But I think the course is going to be marvelous--no question about it. Most of those in and around Stonewall have high hopes for it too. But I ran into some player putting his clubs in his car when I was getting in my car and he asked me what I thought of the course. I said I thought it looked great. He said; "I think it sucks".

That's his opinion--so what? I think he's full of crap!

Paul_Turner

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Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2003, 11:07:05 PM »
I think an imaginative golf course enthusiast/critic can get the essence of the course's quality in one round.  I remember that quote of Macdonald, that you can never truly appreciate a course unless it's played under all conditions.  But if the player has no imagination, then all they have, is the course as it plays for their own game under all conditions.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2003, 11:08:51 PM by P_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2003, 09:21:49 AM »
P_Turner,

Yeah, what does that guy Charles Blair MacDonald know about golf course architecture ?

You're far more qualified than he is to determine what it takes to evaluate a golf hole and golf course.

He is, as you said, lacking in imagination, and therefore requires in depth analysis.  ;D

Tom MacWood,

I think we all recognize that Matt's pronouncements are merely his opinions.  No need to evaluate style, the opinions stand or fall on their merits.

Eric Pevoto

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Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2003, 09:46:22 AM »
To get a sense of the drivel put out by "course critics" who have little experience with a site, just visit a place like golfcourse.com.  There is no way any person can properly evaluate a golf course after one playing, and certainly not after a walk of the place.

On the other hand, the work of people like Shackleford, who devote years to the study of a golf course, is valuable and meaningful.

After having the privilege of walking seeing our site for over a year and half before anyone played it and imagining the shots that were to be played, I can say now that we've opened nine holes that there are shots and holes that flat out do not play the way I envisioned.  It's been fun to hear the members discuss the different ways they get to the flag.  I'd imagine that this process will go on forever.

As for subtleties in design.  I'd agree that unless the architect is on site, working in the dirt, the chances of subtle features being found is minimal.  But, I wonder how many of these subtleties is the architect even aware?  

I have a feeling so much of what is attributed to the architect is simply found by the golfer.  Gil and the guys have an amazing sense of golf and strategy, but there's no way they can imagine every possible shot.  
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

T_MacWood

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2003, 09:58:46 AM »
Pat
The way I read it, what Ran is referring to is the fellow who expresses his opinion as if it were etched on stone tablets. The self proclaimed golf architecture expert who "rush around a course one time and then deliver a final verdict in no uncertain terms on the course....Rarely are remarks tempered...." It is the final verdict part and the untempered part that is the problem. If Ran wants evaluate both style (or delivery) and substance...so be it. I agree with him on that point.

CB Macdonald like most golf architects was sensative to negative reviews. Certainly everyone agrees the more one plays a course the more you can appreciate the designs positive and negative traits. But Macdonald had no problem pointing out positve reviews of his work after one visit. I would think his theory would cut both ways.

If I'm not mistaken we have read your opinion after a single play....didn't you share your impressions of Friars Head? Inniscrone? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Darren_Kilfara

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Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2003, 10:04:18 AM »
Ran, can't the same statement you've just be made be pointed at the critic who studies a painting for twenty minutes or reads a novel over the course of a couple of days or critiques just about anything with an artistic flair to it? Do you - or more pertinently, should you - ask a book critic to read a novel several times over before he starts writing his review? Sure, to FULLY understand a golf course you might need to play it between 10 and 100 times, seeing it in different wind/weather/turf conditions, to see different pin positions and experience different angles and recovery shots - but to SUFFICIENTLY understand it you probably only need to play it once or twice. And not every  course is the equivalent of James Joyce or William Faulkner: most prose isn't that dense, just as most golf courses aren't that subtle.

There are exceptions to the above rule - cf. The Old Course :) - but not as many as you seem to think.

Cheers,
Darren

Paul_Turner

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Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2003, 10:54:20 AM »
P Mucci writes:

Quote
P_Turner,

Yeah, what does that guy Charles Blair MacDonald know about golf course architecture ?

You're far more qualified than he is to determine what it takes to evaluate a golf hole and golf course.

Thanks mate.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Ron_Whitten

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2003, 12:01:01 PM »
Ran, your's is a perfectly legitimate question and one that has long concerned me, not just in my own duties as a "critic," but also concerning panelists who play and pass judgment on courses for magazine surveys. I have long urged Golf Digest panelists to play a course more than once or at the very least, walk (or ride) the course a second time, without clubs, to observe things not noticed while playing.  Yes, this is still a terribly superficial examination of a project that an architect (and many others) spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours upon, BUT, architects aren't designing for us critics. They are (or should be) designing for patrons who pay and play.  How many rounds should they have to play before they pass judgment on the course? One, two, ten?

Okay, most customers are looking at a course with a much less trained eye than critics, and are looking for a lot different things . . . nice lies, no OBs, no deep grass, no lost balls, etc. My point is, for both critics and paying customers, judgments are arrived after a single round, good, bad or indifferent.  Everything is based on first impressions, which is why most architects these days engage in such spectacular special effects aimed at making those first impressions.  

As somebody who makes a living more or less as a critic, I can honestly say that my bosses won't wait while I spend 100 hours trying to absorb every nuance of Oak Hill or Whistling Straits before I write an article about it. So you do the best you can with what time you can devote to each study.  You do make a solid point with me, however, that I should bee more open with readers about how much or how little time I spent on a particular course before writing about it.  I detest being asked to write about a course that I have never played, but I've done it. (Case in point: Augusta National.  I've walked the thing a dozen times, but have yet had the opportunity to tee it up there. Does that disqualify me from writing about it?  Not at all.   As Agatha Christie once said, you don't have to commit murder to write intelligently about it.

For the record, regarding The Quarry at Giants Ridge (my web site course review this week), I toured the raw site with Brauer a couple of years back, photographed it one evening and the next morning a couple of weeks back, and played it twice, once in a dreaded scramble, the second time with Jeff Brauer and his ball-bashing PGA Champion-in-the-making 15 year old son.  I'm probably luckier than most in that I got to pick Brauer's brain about certain holes, shots, etc. Would more rounds improve my perspective of the course. Probably, especially since I was so enthusiastic in my review.  But waiting to get back there again, and writing about it in December, does no one any good. So we make do with the time we have.

I commend you on forcing us to think about our own actions. Having thought about it, I think most of us feel pretty comfortable with what we're doing.  

P.S.  I only wish more architects really spent as much time on sites as you think they do.  Associates, project architects, project engineers, construction superintendents, yes.  Real architects?  Alas, no. Brauer, however, told me he would show me his hotel receipts to prove he spent all 100 plus days on the site he says he spent.  He didn't need to I think it showed in the final product.

Matt_Ward

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2003, 12:12:14 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Hint - hint -- At least I take the time to visit the courses in question before pronouncing my opinion. If you don't care for my opinion you can do what most Americans do with their TV channel changer -- flip to something else. ;D

T_MacWood

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2003, 01:11:17 PM »
Matt
What do you mean, I love your opinions....they are the gold standard and good fun.
 
Understanding that architecture and the history of golf architecture ain't really your bag (nothing wrong with that), let me try to explain the difference between documenting changes and judging the merits of a golf course.

Documenting changes to an original design is tangible, for example, "The 7th at ANGC originally had an L-shaped bunkerless green with large depression in the front--supposedly modeled after the Valley of Sin. It was altered by Perry Maxwell in the late 30's. The green was moved up the hill behind the old green (lengthening the hole) and he ringed the green by bunkers." It is not necessary to visit ANGC to uncover this information...it isn't a matter of judgement.

Judging the merits of a golf course involves playing the course and is a subjective exercise. For example: "Wolf Creek is one of the top 50 courses in the world...it is simply delicious!" One would have to travel to lovely Mesquite and play the course before judging the merits of the course.

I understand it is a little complicated....I hope this helps.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2003, 02:03:13 PM »
 :D

To Ran's original query.. I say No.  

Critics should be critics, GCAs should be GCAs, each with their own purpose, objectives, and value systems.  Let them ultimately be judged by their peers.  Let the public test and accept or reject their work over time.

The cross-over or melds seen in posters here on GCA.COM, between purists, preservationists, modernists, players, hacks, psuedo-GCAs, wanna-be's and professional students inevitably leads to some herd mentality as well as some very insightful commentary and debate.  Add some basic human yearnings and the enabling technology of the Internet and we're privileged to participate in something like GCA.COM no matter how weird our input may be to others.   It is certainly not the Yale Journal of Criticism here!

I certainly vote for informed opinions, but in the end opinions are all you can really get in this venue, their mass sometimes taking on a semblence of "concensus" at best or anarchy at worst.  If it makes me think twice, its a good opinion!  If I've played the course and can't communicate something of value or never played it, I'm better off learning from others.

I also vote for a little tempering of absolutes offered by posters!  Perhaps it would be best for folks to just count to ten or better yet, read all the titles on the last 10 pages of GCA.COM.. before getting too excited about writing their next post and judging its value to the group before hitting the post button.      

Regards 8)
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Matt_Ward

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2003, 02:51:35 PM »
Tom:

Thanks for taking the time to come down from the clouds and explain it to peasants like me. I appreciate your benevolence almighty one. ::)

P.S. Next time you're in Mesquite let me know what you think about Wolf Creek but it's likely you'll only see it from the window of a plane.

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2003, 02:54:09 PM »
Ran -

Critics held to standards?  Now that's a good one!!!  Since we are all critics, I know that my very low standards would be pretty boring to the current day "Bulldoze and recreate Scotland everwhere crowd," but here goes...

For the record my subjective judgement of course criticism includes:

Overall:  Does the course use the terrain well?  Even blind shots for the first visit can be fun if there is a way to preview the shot from an earlier tee, etc.

Playability:  Are there ways for the 0-5 handicap play with the 25 hcp from different tees without boredom or excessive difficulty overwhelming either player?

Risk vs. Reward ratio:  If the course doesn't offer a player a chance to "Go for it", then why bother coming out.  Bocce is also played on the ground, and that game won't hurt the body as much.

Fairness:  Does the course require an undue amount of deceit in the form of forced lay-ups on par 5's, visual trickery, false fronting bunkers, green speed unsuitable for slope, etc. that render "Member National" unfair?

Maintainance:  Did the GCA set up proper drainage, cart path routing (unfortunate necessary evil), safety from errant shots?  Are the tees relatively level with enough crown for drainage, but not tilted in one direction (A MAJOR pet peeve of mine).

Longevity:  Was golf fun that day regardless of the score or company?  Were the holes memorable?  Would I be happy to play this course again or all the time as a member?

I think that you nailed it in the fact that everyone is subjective in nature as to what does and does not please them.  In my newbie, and most humble opinion, we place too much emphasis on reworking landscapes in order to make lists and rankings, and not enough effort is being put into playability.

In the end, word of mouth from the respected will sway more opinions than a breathless review of the next "Top 50 You can play".

KLP

p.s.  Ron, I do like your reviews!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2003, 10:16:21 PM »
Tom MacWood,

With Friar's Head, it wasn't my first time on the golf course.  
Previously, I had spent the entire afternoon with Ken Bakst and Terry McBride,  touring and discussing each and every hole, and features of interest, with Ken and Terry.

With respect to Inniscrone, I played the golf course with Ran Morrissett, and then spent the balance of the afternoon, and all evening discussing it with Gil Hanse, Tom Paul, Ran Morrissett and others.

My opinion/impression is merely that, and stands or falls on the logic of my views and my presentation.

But, the presentations I made had the benefit, or added weight, of extensive conversations with the architect and the developer/architect.

I was fortunate to have their input and to have them answer the innumerable questions I posed.

You may recall, that I have been reluctant to put forth my opinion/impression of a golf course, and that you and others have asked me on numerous occassions to present my views when discussing a golf hole or golf course.

A good deal of my discussion of a golf hole or golf course is usually in the form of questions, not opinions.

I don't think that there is any doubt that an opinion based on an inordinate number of rounds on a golf course should be more sound then an opinion based on one round on a golf course or no rounds on a golf course.

I can't tell you what the magical number of rounds is, before each and every individual fully understands the architecture, and I'm sure that certain individuals have the talent to see things much earlier and easier than others.  But, I would think, that with repeated play, clarity would be a by-product.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2003, 10:44:47 PM »
I have been  a panelist for GOLF DIGEST for almost ten years.  At the time I was added to the rankings panel I had played about 45 of the top 100 on the GD list, and about 25 courses in the British Isles.  I had read many books on the subject, so I was convinced that I was ready to rate any course.  Boy, was I wrong.  I think it took me three or four years before I was beginning to get ready.  Shot value--what does that mean?  I asked dozens of informed people and got dozens of good but different answers.  I probably play about 60 -80 different course each year.  Some to rate and others at friends courses that aren't nominated to be rated.  I still have trouble deciding how to rate a course.  I know about ten other panelists and we can get into some heated discussions about blind shots, bunkering etc.  

Ron, it seems to me that it would be good to get a bunch of us together from time to time and have some instruction on architecture.  Even with all my reading and playing I still feel like a neophite.  I know a couple of twenty something raters that are great players but decide whether a course is good or not by how well they score.  I played a course  this summer that had a British type fescue on the fairways.  I loved it, my playing companion was going to give it a 2 on condidtion--I gave it an 8.  He said it wasn't green enough.  What concerns me sometimes is that there are some courses that are the dream of the owner and while everyone likes to have an opinion, mine,for good or ill means something.  Five or six years ago I played a new course in NJ.  The course was the life's dream of the couple who built it.   They had sunk their life's savings into the course.   Every three or four holes the owner would come out and ask,  What do you think?  Did you notice that trap, or the way the fairway turned.  Do you think I should take this tree down?  etc.  While we can pontificate about courses on this site and it has little effect on most courses, the rankings do.  I played one new public course a few years ago and the greens fee was 50$.  I was rated as one of the top ten Affordable courses.  The next year the greens fee went up to 100$

So to answer -- Yes hold us accountable for our ratings.  How? I'm not sure, but some training and meetings might go a long way in helping.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

T_MacWood

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2003, 11:12:25 PM »
Pat
No need to explain your case to me...Macdonald was the one who wouldn't certify your single round assessments.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2003, 11:19:35 PM »
Tom MacWood,

What do you think Charles Blair MacDonald's views would be with respect to an individual evaluating a hole or golf course without ever seeing it ?   ;D

Normally, I'd side with MacDonald,

But, when you have the benefit of the architect/developer's opinions and thoughts mixed with your own, perhaps CBM would grant an exemption.. and then again, he might not.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2003, 11:22:54 PM »
Ran;

How many courses have you played over the years where you found on a second or subsequent playing that your initial opinion was fundamentally and substantially in error??

I'm not talking a point here or a point there.  I'm talking completely missing the point.  

Yes, any good course always is going to unveil some suprises over time, but shouldn't that be somewhat apparent on the first playing?  It's fairly easy to tell the courses that are multi-dimensional from ones that are design by rote and even though you might not know all of the nuances in a single go round, it should be fairly recognizable that subtleties do exist.

Having played with you a number of times, I'm always impressed with your eye for details.  I know you're not just out there banging the ball around, but take the time and care to look at each hole in a conscientious way.  There are any number of others here who have the same ability, and while I might not agree with all of their assessments, I do at least 80% of the time and respect them when we are at odds.

I'd never want you or them to silence your critical voices simply because it was based on a single playing.

T_MacWood

Re:Should course critics be held to a similar standard?
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2003, 11:25:11 PM »
Pat
Macdonald would probably ask you to explain exactly what you are talking about...evaluating a course without playing it...and when you couldn't supply relevant & specific details, he would dismiss your ramblings as I do.