[Michael Felton]

I like thinking about things like this from time to time and this seems like a pretty good place to share some of those thoughts.

I think my favourite type of hole is the sort where you get to choose on the tee where you would like the difficulty to be. The two best examples that I can think of are the 6th and 16th holes at Pine Valley. On the 16th hole, you stand on the tee looking at a vast fairway bunker that you need to carry to reach the fairway. On the left side, the carry is relatively short, but on the right side, the carry is up to around 270 yards or so. Once you're in the fairway, you have a shot to a green that slopes sharply off on the right towards the lake. Thus the further left you are from your tee shot, the more you have to play your approach shot towards the water. The further right you are, the easier your approach shot.

Upshot of all that is that if you take on the tough tee shot and pull it off, you're rewarded with an easier approach and if you take the easy option off the tee, you suffer the consequences on your approach shot. The 6th is fairly similar except that the hole also turns to the right, so the longer carry results in a shorter approach shot. The first time I played the course I ended up going for the carry (for the record I didn't mean to) and it took me three more goes to get back to the fairway. It's a devilish hole if you mess it up, but it's also pretty easy to play in 5.

Earlier this month I was playing with Brian Sheehy at Walton Heath and I realised that the 13th hole on the Old (when the course is playing properly) is somewhat similar to that. It's a dogleg to the right par 5 of around 530 yards. There is a vicious bunker on the corner of the dogleg that I am always trying to carry and always discovering that I can't. If you play the hole sensibly though, the tighter you clip your drive to the fairway bunker, the shorter your second shot and therefore the more reachable the green is, but if you go in there, you're going to have a tough third.

There are also similar things that happen on or at the green. Again looking at Pine Valley, the 13th hole is a great example. You have acres of fairway out to the right, and just total death if you go left. I found it extremely difficult to hit it at the flag there because subconsciously it's so much safer out to the right. Then you get down there and realise that you have a really difficult chip from the right because of the slope of the green and surround.

Of course then you walk over to 14 and you stand there looking at a do or die shot.

Yet another way to create the same situation is to have a narrow landing area if you hit driver, but much wider if you play up short of it. Then the trade off becomes do you take the risk with driver to give you the shorter approach or do you accept the longer approach shot in return for safety off the tee. The 13th hole at Bethpage Red covers both options in spades. As has been discussed before you have three real choices. Lay up in the middle and leave yourself a long shot. Play long down the right and leave yourself a short shot, but with a poor angle. Or play long down the left and leave yourself a short shot with a good angle. The lay up has the least trouble, followed by the long down the right with the most trouble around if you go long and down the left side. Great hole!

So, that, in summary, is my favourite type of golf hole. Critiques, suggestions, additions, alternatives all welcome.

Cheers!

[Mark Fedeli]

pulled this one out of storage for ya:

[Charlie Gallagher]

Michael,
   I like your description of strategic challenge where a safe drive creates more difficulty on the approach because of nearby hazard and green configuration and slope. I tend to admire such design too, and I will give you further food for thought.
   I particularly like shorter par 4's where a central hazard or feature forces a choice of angle off the tee and where the green and its surrounds don't necessarily reward brute strength unless it is precisely applied. An example; the 16th hole at Boston Golf Club is a short 4 with a small green and a slightly offset "principals nose" bunker. The right side of the fairway is wide open, but the left side has a short cross bunker that must be carried, then a narrow fairway left of the"nose" bunker and then a hollow right in front of the green.  Pitches from the right require great precision and tend to be difficult because the angle of attack is poor. Pitches from the left are much easier, but the drive must be hit both far and precisely.
   I like to think that Ben Hogan would lick his chops about the way to play the hole.
  Another example of the concept is exemplified by the 1st hole at Wolf Point.
  I used to like long, hard, par 4's like the 7th at Royal Portrush, and I still think great holes like that one have their place, but I find holes that present strategic tradeoffs to be far more interesting.

[Michael Felton]

Hi Charlie,

I'm not familiar with either of the two holes that you mentioned, but that sounds like an interesting example. I took a look at the satellite pictures on google maps and while I can't see the depression in front of the green I certainly see what you mean. Defending short par fours is always an interesting situation. You can certainly do it with the green or the green surrounds - for example 8 at Pine Valley or 3 at Augusta. I am not such a fan of making the hole very narrow. I think I'd rather that the architect tempts the player into hitting his driver and getting himself into trouble. Giving him enough rope to hang himself if you will. That hole at Boston GC certainly seems to fit that bill.

[Mark Chaplin]

Michael 6 RMW must fall into this category, heroic drive leaves the best and shortest shot, but playing left has virtually no carry and is still a great hole.

[Jon Cavalier]

I know it's simplistic, but I love me a Redan. I enjoy the differences, often subtle, sometimes not, in the variations present in Redans across courses. Just something about hitting the perfect shot, watching your ball take the slope and tumble toward the cup (or, in the case of uphil Redans, the anticipation of walking up to the green to see where your ball ended up.

A few of my favorite examples:

The wonderful, slightly elevated redan 8th at Greenbrier:


The flat out excellent redan 3rd at Piping Rock:


The simple but effective reverse redan 6th at Fox Chapel (and which follows the reverse redan par 4 first):


The understated (and perhaps a bit of a misfit) reverse redan 8th at Creek Club:


The downhill, gorgeously situated (though overwhelmed by the 9th hole) redan 13th at Yale:


The more-than-a-little goofy and unique redan 3rd at Gibson Island Club:


The severely downhill, hugely titled but extremely fun to play redan 11th at Mountain Lake:


The through-the-trees redan 11 at Country Club of Charleston, with its huge false front:


And my personal favorite to date, the sharply downhill reverse redan 7th at Sleepy Hollow, which has more of a redan effect than any other I've seen:


I can't wait for the next one.

[BHoover]

My favorite hole is one that allows for various options. I mean various options off the tee, both in terms of what club to hit and how to shape the shot or where to hit it. On the green, I like to have various options on how to get close to a hole location, whether through the air or by slopes or a bowl effect. The more options the better.

[Bill Brightly]

I know it's simplistic, but I love me a Redan.  

I can't wait for the next one.

How about this one?



Which reminded a retired soldier of this one (The Redan at Sevastopol) :


And thus the hole at North Berwick had it's name, and would eventually be modified to look like this:


and inspire CB Macdonald to build this one:


Which would inspire Banks to build his first Redan (and his best, in my opinion) at my home course, Hackensack:

[Ryan Coles]

Generally speaking a short par 3. No more than a 7 iron, smallish sloping green with a difficult to impossible recovery shot if you miss the green.

[Peter Pallotta]

I like Par 4s, regulation length and fairly straight ahead (or maybe with a slight dogleg, right or left) and ending with an interesting green, angled to the line of play a bit and with a lot of slope/tilt to it (if it has contours that's good too, but not essential). Ideally the hazards 'cut into' the fairway, with only my very best drive able to carry them (and only if my confidence-level is high in the first pace). I like it if trees frame the 'vista' and not the hole, meaning that the trees provide/shape a broad canvas rather that the playing corridor, and that the hole plays gently uphill or gently downhill (nothing too overtly 'dramatic', the overtness of it killing the would be drama for me). The angled and titled green would be best if it has only one hazard, cutting into it -- a big, deep, dangerous bunker, but as I say, only one.

Peter  

[Charlie_Bell]

Thank you, Jon, for my favorite post of the year so far.

It was killing me to scroll down through your post and not see Sleepy Hollow -- and then to discover you'd saved the best for last.  My taste may be plebeian, but I like playing holes that are like putt-putt courses on steroids:  full of massive contours that thrill the eye and roll the  ball with drama.

[Bryan Icenhower]

I enjoy holes where playing those subtle features that are often ignored by most golfers which give you a strategic advantage when played correctly.  Redans fit the bill for sure. Speed slots too.

[Matt Waidmann]

My favorite type of hole is the legitimate driveable par 4.  Not one of these 320-340 yard holes that only the small minority of golfers in the world can reach with their tee shot.  It has to be 300 yards or less and require strategy.  As much as I love the 16th at Pacific Dunes and the "potential" to drive the green, most of the time it is unreachable.  I'm thinking more along the lines of the 5th at Tobacco Road.  The best hole of this type I've been able to play.  You have plenty of fairway out to the right for a lay-up and a wedge in, or you can risk it all and drive over the vast, sandy waste area.  I've played the hole twice, laying up once and making par the safe way, taking a risk the other time and making a double bogey by driving into the waste area.  The front of the green has a false front that feeds down into a collection area.  Getting up and down from the collection area is no gimme.  Actually hitting the green is quite an achievement, but the yardage makes it possible and the risk-reward nature of the hole is fantastic.  Another Strantz gem.

[David Ober]

I just love really short par 3's of well under 150 yards with tiny greens where even the best of players can make double. We have a hole like that at Bear Creek, our 6th.

The tiny 72-yard par-3 15th is another favorite. Its nickname: "The shortest par-5 in America."

[Mark Chaplin]

12 at TCC being the perfect example of a short par 3

[Brent Hutto]

I'm generally all about the "green end" of a hole moreso than the "tee end". The fourth at Ganton has an ideal green site and in fact the entire final hundred yards leading up to the green is just about perfect IMO.

If you hit a good drive to the favorable part of the fairway, you can use the slope into which the green is set to bounce and run the ball toward the hole location of the day. But it's not easy and takes judgement and even a bit of local knowledge.

If you're in the rough well over to the left or if you get too close to the corner on the right or for that matter if you mishit a tee shot and end up 180 yards out from the green for your approach the little swale short of the green combined with the firmness and tilt of the green makes for a very difficult job even getting a ball on the green at all.

The final element is how the slight dogleg and the down-and-back-up nature of that final 100 yards interacts to make the wind swirl. More judgement/local knowledge required.

So for me it's a Par 4 that's long enough to require consideration of how the ball bounce and run but then with a sufficiently downhill tee shot to keep the length from feeling overwhelming. Then the big challenge to ones judgement and ability to control what is often an "in betweener", knockdown or otherwise modified approach shot. One of the best holes I've ever played and certainly one of the best medium-long (something like 407 from the medal tees) two-shotters.

[Mark Fedeli]

This may just be a different way of looking at what some of you have already said, but:

I love any hole where you have to hit an "easy" shot into a "difficult" position. Where the shot you are required to hit off the tee is something you've hit a million times and have no fear of from a physical standpoint, but either the landing area is fraught with trouble, or, missing your spot brings a world of trouble into play for the next shot.

Examples:

For a Par 3: 60-100 yards, but with a green that is tiny and tightly guarded (#13 at Pawleys Plantation).
For a Par 4: 300 yards, but requiring a precise 180-200 yard shot off the tee to get in the proper position to attack an angled, narrow green. (#10 at Tallgrass).
Par 5:  A true three-shotter where laying back off the tee doesn't cost you, and each of the three shots is eminently playable, but require serious attention and consideration (#4 and #13 at BPB).

[SteveOgulukian]

This may just be a different way of looking at what some of you have already said, but:

I love any hole where you have to hit an "easy" shot into a "difficult" position. Where the shot you are required to hit off the tee is something you've hit a million times and have no fear of from a physical standpoint, but either the landing area is fraught with trouble, or, missing your spot brings a world of trouble into play for the next shot.

Examples:

For a Par 3: 60-100 yards, but with a green that is tiny and tightly guarded (#13 at Pawleys Plantation).
For a Par 4: 300 yards, but requiring a precise 180-200 yard shot off the tee to get in the proper position to attack an angled, narrow green. (#10 at Tallgrass).
Par 5:  A true three-shotter where laying back off the tee doesn't cost you, and each of the three shots is eminently playable, but require serious attention and consideration (#4 and #13 at BPB).

Mark,

It appears as though we both play Tallgrass 10 differently.  If you lay back off the tee, I assume that you try to hug the bunker on the right in order to leave yourself the best angle into that green.  Since you need to challenge that bunker, why do you refrain from hitting your drive over it?

As for your comment about BPB #4, my only disagreement there is that if you do lay back off the tee and happen to miss the fairway, then you have a very tough second shot if the rough is at it's typical length.  I've had to lay up on my second shot on that hole because of the lie I was left with after my drive.

[Mark Fedeli]

Mark,

It appears as though we both play Tallgrass 10 differently.  If you lay back off the tee, I assume that you try to hug the bunker on the right in order to leave yourself the best angle into that green.  Since you need to challenge that bunker, why do you refrain from hitting your drive over it?

As for your comment about BPB #4, my only disagreement there is that if you do lay back off the tee and happen to miss the fairway, then you have a very tough second shot if the rough is at it's typical length.  I've had to lay up on my second shot on that hole because of the lie I was left with after my drive.

Steve,

You bring up a good point.

It truly is all about preference. I used to always try to fly the bunker on Tallgrass #10 but, more times than not, I wound up out of position. Now, I choose to lay back just inside-left of it with a club i know i can control and that won't go too far—and I have a much better time playing the hole that way. Or consider #12 at Tallgrass. I used to always hit driver there but then realized I simply had more fun hitting 3iron and then sand wedge. Having that option excites me.

The Black examples may not have been the best, but they were fresh in my mind from this past weekend and it's a course that I rarely see anyone "lay back" on. For #4, if i lay back a bit off the tee, and I hit my spot, i only have 130-150 to get to my next spot up the hill (and then 100 to the green from there). I like that I have the option to lay back, and that the lack of distance won't hurt me if I execute properly. Just this Sunday I hit 3wood, 7iron, SW and had 20 feet for birdie and it was the most fun/least stressful way I've ever played the hole. But what makes that particular example truly interesting to me is that playing competitors think hitting less than driver there is nutso.

It's a much different feeling from something like #15 at Bethpage, where driver is probably your only hope to have any shot of reaching the green, and even after a good drive, your second is a lot of "hit it and hope."

[SteveOgulukian]

Mark,

It appears as though we both play Tallgrass 10 differently.  If you lay back off the tee, I assume that you try to hug the bunker on the right in order to leave yourself the best angle into that green.  Since you need to challenge that bunker, why do you refrain from hitting your drive over it?

As for your comment about BPB #4, my only disagreement there is that if you do lay back off the tee and happen to miss the fairway, then you have a very tough second shot if the rough is at it's typical length.  I've had to lay up on my second shot on that hole because of the lie I was left with after my drive.

Steve,

You bring up a good point.

It truly is all about preference. I used to always try to fly the bunker on Tallgrass #10 but, more times than not, I wound up out of position. Now, I choose to lay back just inside-left of it with a club i know i can control and that won't go too far—and I have a much better time playing the hole that way. Or consider #12 at Tallgrass. I used to always hit driver there but then realized I simply had more fun hitting 3iron and then sand wedge. Having that option excites me.

The Black examples may not have been the best, but they were fresh in my mind from this past weekend and it's a course that I rarely see anyone "lay back" on. For #4, if i lay back a bit off the tee, and I hit my spot, i only have 130-150 to get to my next spot up the hill (and then 100 to the green from there). I like that I have the option to lay back, and that the lack of distance won't hurt me if I execute properly. Just this Sunday I hit 3wood, 7iron, SW and had 20 feet for birdie and it was the most fun/least stressful way I've ever played the hole. But what makes that particular example truly interesting to me is that playing competitors think hitting less than driver there is nutso.

It's a much different feeling from something like #15 at Bethpage, where driver is probably your only hope to have any shot of reaching the green, and even after a good drive, your second is a lot of "hit it and hope."

I do agree that a drive, 7 iron, wedge is a great way to play #4.  I don't trust my 3 wood so for me it's always a driver.

[Michael Felton]

Mark,

It appears as though we both play Tallgrass 10 differently.  If you lay back off the tee, I assume that you try to hug the bunker on the right in order to leave yourself the best angle into that green.  Since you need to challenge that bunker, why do you refrain from hitting your drive over it?

As for your comment about BPB #4, my only disagreement there is that if you do lay back off the tee and happen to miss the fairway, then you have a very tough second shot if the rough is at it's typical length.  I've had to lay up on my second shot on that hole because of the lie I was left with after my drive.

Steve,

You bring up a good point.

It truly is all about preference. I used to always try to fly the bunker on Tallgrass #10 but, more times than not, I wound up out of position. Now, I choose to lay back just inside-left of it with a club i know i can control and that won't go too far—and I have a much better time playing the hole that way. Or consider #12 at Tallgrass. I used to always hit driver there but then realized I simply had more fun hitting 3iron and then sand wedge. Having that option excites me.

The Black examples may not have been the best, but they were fresh in my mind from this past weekend and it's a course that I rarely see anyone "lay back" on. For #4, if i lay back a bit off the tee, and I hit my spot, i only have 130-150 to get to my next spot up the hill (and then 100 to the green from there). I like that I have the option to lay back, and that the lack of distance won't hurt me if I execute properly. Just this Sunday I hit 3wood, 7iron, SW and had 20 feet for birdie and it was the most fun/least stressful way I've ever played the hole. But what makes that particular example truly interesting to me is that playing competitors think hitting less than driver there is nutso.

It's a much different feeling from something like #15 at Bethpage, where driver is probably your only hope to have any shot of reaching the green, and even after a good drive, your second is a lot of "hit it and hope."

I do agree that a drive, 7 iron, wedge is a great way to play #4.  I don't trust my 3 wood so for me it's always a driver.

You're both doing it wrong! It's much more fun to plug a 3 wood in that front bunker, or worse, hit the green at pace and wind up in the deep stuff over the back down the hill. Every time I play that hole when I hit a good drive, I think right, this time I'm going to play up to the right pin high and give myself a simple chip up the green. Then I get there and I think oo, I can do this and put myself in big trouble.

[SteveOgulukian]

Always play up the right side.  I once hit a super drive and one of the best 3 woods I've ever hit (in terms of contact, ball flight, and distance) and walked away with an 8.

[Mark Fedeli]

You're both doing it wrong! It's much more fun to plug a 3 wood in that front bunker, or worse, hit the green at pace and wind up in the deep stuff over the back down the hill. Every time I play that hole when I hit a good drive, I think right, this time I'm going to play up to the right pin high and give myself a simple chip up the green. Then I get there and I think oo, I can do this and put myself in big trouble.

i'm partial to snap hooking my driver into the left bunkers, taking two to get out, dejectedly dropping one into the cross bunkers, blowing a majestic mid-iron over the green from there, chipping up to the fringe, then 3 putting. what is that? 9? yup. sounds about right.

[Mac Plumart]

Earlier this month I was playing with Brian Sheehy

First off, Michael, let me offer my sincerest apologies to you.  That must have been awful!   

But secondly, I'll address your question.  What are my favorite type of golf holes?

I like many types of holes, but I'll touch on two.

#1--I love 1/2 par holes..on the downward side.  That is a short par 4...par 3.5.  Short par 5...par 4.5, really.  There are so many interesting things the architect can do to "defend par" on these shorter types of holes.

And that brings me to the second type of hole I like...

#2--I like unique and interesting holes, especially if I'm traveling to play golf.  If I'm traveling hours (or days), I really want to see something I've never seen before; something unique.  Things like 10 at Riviera.  Perfection at North Berwick.  The Alps at NGLA.  Short at Old Mac.  16 at Bandon Dunes.  12 at Askernish.  Holes that make me scratch my head and actually have to think...how should I play this hole?  I find that fun.

[BShannon]

Mid length Par 4, wide landing area, elevated and/or severely sloped putting surface.

Pasatiempo - 16th

OFCC, South - 6th

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