[Jay Flemma]

So I'm listening to the b'cast on Masters.com and the announcers said it - "This is a second shot golf course."

But are they right?  13 certainly isn't a second shot hole.  When I interviewed Geoff Ogilvy, he said everything is set up by the tee shot.  And with the contours of the greens, if you're not in the right position off the tee, you have a terrible angle coming into certain hole locations.  What about the par-5s? Like 8...if you're in  the wrong place, you can't get to that green at all...

Was that just something to say to kill time on the air? Or is Augusta really a second shot golf course?

[Sam Morrow]

I've never liked that saying for anywhere. One of the great things about golf is that every shot counts. If you hit it short and crooked everytime it's not gonna matter how good your second shots are because in the long run you can't compete unless you make everything.

[John Shimp]

Its an every shot course. Nothing is easy.   Clearly have to hit great approaches to birdie.

[Tom_Doak]

They say that about every course that isn't tight off the tee.

If it's tight off the tee they say "it's a good driving course".

Both are pretty meaningless, once you consider who's saying them.

[Peter Pallotta]

On the other hand, there's probably no place else where JN could've finished 6th in 1998, at 58 years old with two hip replacements and a bad back and giving up distance off the tee to almost the entire field, simply because his approach shots were so good, almost always to the best spots on the greens (and even when he missed, missing in the right place). That's experience, sure -- but it's also the architecture that tests iron play (ie. 2nd shots) in every way imaginable.

Peter

[BHoover]

Last time I checked, every shot counts, so put me in the group that calls ANGC an "every shot golf course."

[Sam Morrow]

On the other hand, there's probably no place else where JN could've finished 6th in 1998, at 58 years old with two hip replacements and a bad back and giving up distance off the tee to almost the entire field, simply because his approach shots were so good, almost always to the best spots on the greens (and even when he missed, missing in the right place). That's experience, sure -- but it's also the architecture that tests iron play (ie. 2nd shots) in every way imaginable.

Peter

How much distance was he giving up?

[Peter Pallotta]

Fine, Sam -- he wasn't giving up ANY distance at 58 years old with artificial hips and a bad back, none at all.

My main point was this: for some reason, the term 2nd shot golf course seems to have gotten a negative connotation, when I think it's clearly a testament to wonderful greens and green surrounds. It's not that good driving doesn't get rewarded there, it's just that it's not exponentially rewarded -- how well you control your approach, and then scramble and putt is as/more important....which I've always assumed was the key to designing a course that everyone can enjoy and that at the same time could test the best players in the world.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure I've ever seen or read about a "good driving course" that is also praised for it's greens/surrounds.  

Peter

[Sam Morrow]

I was really being serious, it seems like he was getting to par 5's in two I just couldn't remember details. I wasn't trying to poop in your idea.

[Peter Pallotta]

Apologies for the testiness, Sam - for some reason folks picking out one bit of a post has always been my pet peeve.

If I remember right, he probably was hitting the 5s in two, but then many were doing that pre the decade+ of constant lengthening. I remember too, though, that he was coming into a lot of the Par 4s with more club than he ever had, and that the wet conditions the first couple of days really hurt him distance wise vis-a-vis the field. Anyway, I was mainly bouncing of Tom D's post and suggesting that the phrase could have positive connotations.
Peter

[Sam Morrow]

Apologies for the testiness, Sam - for some reason folks picking out one bit of a post has always been my pet peeve.

If I remember right, he probably was hitting the 5s in two, but then many were doing that pre the decade+ of constant lengthening. I remember too, though, that he was coming into a lot of the Par 4s with more club than he ever had, and that the wet conditions the first couple of days really hurt him distance wise vis-a-vis the field. Anyway, I was mainly bouncing of Tom D's post and suggesting that the phrase could have positive connotations.
Peter

No problem. I couldn't remember how much shorter he hit it than the other guys.  I found it funny that 15 minutes after seeing this thread I saw a link online to an article about Augusta being the ultimate drivers course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

They need something to talk about, the ratings, sans Tiger, are down about 29% from last year.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jay,

In my limited experience, I've found it difficult to make par or birdie when you drive your ball in the water or woods

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