[Mark Fedeli]

The guys I routinely play with like two opposing things. They hate to see brown spots on the course, especially in the fairways. But they love to see the ball bounce and run as far as possible on their tee shots.

Playing on Bermuda grass, that's a tough ask.

This summarizes the views of most of those with whom I have played.

I hear ya, guys. But if we're talking about the average US public golfer that Rob was referring to in his OP, there is a difference between wanting to see your tee shot finish as far away as possible and consciously wanting to take advantage of the ground game. This hypothetical player typically does not factor roll into his strategy because, unfortunately, he's had very little exposure to firm courses and because the aerial game is sold as the ideal. For him, moderately soft conditions could be a plus.

[Thomas Dai]

I hear ya, guys. But if we're talking about the average US public golfer that Rob was referring to in his OP, there is a difference between wanting to see your tee shot finish as far away as possible and consciously wanting to take advantage of the ground game. This hypothetical player typically does not factor roll into his strategy because, unfortunately, he's had very little exposure to firm courses and because the aerial game is sold as the ideal. For him, moderately soft conditions could be a plus.

Very apt words Mark.
However, for fans of F&F, lack of available water for fairway/rough irrigation or extremely high cost water may be the ultimate saviour of inland ground game golf.
atb

[John Kavanaugh]

So we bash private clubs while claiming to be smarter than everyone else.

[Jason Thurman]

I hear ya, guys. But if we're talking about the average US public golfer that Rob was referring to in his OP, there is a difference between wanting to see your tee shot finish as far away as possible and consciously wanting to take advantage of the ground game. This hypothetical player typically does not factor roll into his strategy because, unfortunately, he's had very little exposure to firm courses and because the aerial game is sold as the ideal. For him, moderately soft conditions could be a plus.

Are you just speculating, or are you basing this conclusion about retail golfer preferences on hard information?

As I said, I've been polling on this very topic lately as part of some informal research I'm doing. I've specifically avoided this forum (I know what the average GCAer would choose) and targeted golf lovers who primarily play public courses. It surprised me how overwhelmingly they voiced preference for firm turf over soft turf.

That's not to say they're all the way "down with brown," because they're not. If the turf looks healthy to them though, the results so far really do show a 4:1 preference for dry, firm turf over lush and green soft turf. I'm not comfortable with the amount of data I have yet, so I won't claim this is even remotely a scientific sampling. But I'd be interested if you have any real info that backs up what you're asserting, because it fits into the information I'm trying to collect.

[Tom_Doak]

If hardly anyone else is interested in architecture, then clubs are wasting a lot of money on those four-color yardage books with all the descriptions of the holes.

My experience is that lots of people show an interest in the subject if they actually stop to think about it.  Many don't, of course, and there is no reason to waste time worrying about them.

[Mark Fedeli]

Are you just speculating, or are you basing this conclusion about retail golfer preferences on hard information?

As I said, I've been polling on this very topic lately as part of some informal research I'm doing. I've specifically avoided this forum (I know what the average GCAer would choose) and targeted golf lovers who primarily play public courses. It surprised me how overwhelmingly they voiced preference for firm turf over soft turf.

That's not to say they're all the way "down with brown," because they're not. If the turf looks healthy to them though, the results so far really do show a 4:1 preference for dry, firm turf over lush and green soft turf. I'm not comfortable with the amount of data I have yet, so I won't claim this is even remotely a scientific sampling. But I'd be interested if you have any real info that backs up what you're asserting, because it fits into the information I'm trying to collect.

Jason,

This is just based on my personal experience over the years (both as a lifelong public golfer in NY/NJ and someone who has worked at a private club) with those who do not have an intellectual interest in architecture. It's important to remember that I'm not categorically saying these players wouldn't enjoy firm conditions, especially if polled; just that I don't think they are predisposed to think of it as an ideal.

Sure, everyone hates mudballs and plugging, but on the flip side, I rarely hear these players say they wish they could putt from 20-30 yards out or that their ball bouncing over a firm green presents a fun challenge. In fact, I've seen firmness bemoaned because their game is already designed for aerial attacks and roll-out makes them uncertain. It's just not the game they think they are supposed to be playing.

[Steve Okula]

I generally agree, but I'm not so sure that the general golfing public prefer soft conditions.  Sure, I think most golfers prefer emerald green to brown, and they may even prefer unwalkable courses with lots of forced carries.  But with the exception of tour pros, who know exactly how far they can carry the ball and can play with near pinpoint precision, I haven't met anyone who honestly prefers soft conditions.  Most, if not all golfers, want firm fairways so they can gain distance off the tee. 

We'll be splitting hairs here a bit, but I'm not so sure I agree. Leaving out the extremes, I think the general golfing public would prefer a course that's as soft as it can be without plugging and mudballs.

Everyone wants more distance on their drives, but most of these hypothetical players don't expect it as a result of roll from proper conditioning. They are far more concerned with high and straight. On approaches to the green, they expect the ball to hit and immediately stop and they consider that outcome to be the ideal. If a ball hits anywhere on the green, bounces beyond the fringe and rolls into the rough, they see that as undeserved.

In other words, the first point of contact with the ground is typically their point of focus in both aiming and outcome.

After forty years in greenkeeping, I can say: Exactly!

[Matthew Lloyd]

Statistically I think golfers on this site represent the minority, if measured simply by numbers.  But I think if you look at the recent trends in design and the types of destinations that have become the most popular and most "critically acclaimed" (Bandon, Hooker County, NE etc.) the GCA favored trends are really the future of golf.  The golfers that enjoy this site are the ones who are willing to travel and pay the money to play these clubs and keep them going, and in that way really re-invest in the game to help shape it in their desired mold.

My guess is that 50 years from now the bad type of resort golf that we all bash on this site will continue to be in decline and remote destination clubs will continue to thrive as golf increasingly becomes a hobby dominated by a small number of die hard players. 

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