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Rob Curtiss

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Are GCAers the minority?
« on: April 11, 2014, 08:37:44 AM »
Is course design more important than course conditions to GCAers and are we in the minority? The reason I pose this question is because :

Yesterday I played a tournament at a Private golf course in the Sarasota/Bradenton area. Lakewood Ranch. It is a Arnold Palmer design.
Let me start by saying it was in immaculate condition.

I didnt know anyone in the tournament, but all the 3 guys I played with kept saying is " this course is awesome ".
I thought the course was very "Vanilla" . So boring . Many holes even looking the same. There were no contours, there were no really unique greens . It was in a houseing development.
When our foursome got back to the clubhouse and we were waiting for our results, again all I am hearing is how awesome the course is.
I wonder if the general golfing society is all about conditions and not so much about design.
I recently was in Chattanooga and played Lookout Mountain and Sequatchie Valley that were so much more stimulating and yet conditions were playable but not spectacular.

So , i wonder , are we the minority in the golf world. Also , can anyone give me a really great Palmer design. Tralee, I guess .

BCowan

Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2014, 08:44:24 AM »
''I wonder if the general golfing society is all about conditions''  Yup!

PCCraig

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2014, 08:50:09 AM »
We are a very small, yet growing, minority.
H.P.S.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2014, 08:51:36 AM »
From all the golfers I met, outside of the GCA component, I'd have to say yes.  The casual or even frequent golfer from my experiences forms their opinion about golf course quality strictly by how pretty the place is, and how exclusive it is.  If there is much manicured greenery and flower beds, player amenities, and even if routed through a canyon of McMansions, this leave a much more lasting impression on most golfers than the design quality, and playing quality of the golf course.  Even the better and more competitive golfers I have met outside this forum are more likely to hold a higher opinion of a boring, 'fair', but perfectly maintained course, than a course with many strategic design features, that is a bit stressed or purposely maintained lean, firm and fast, and without all the golfer-leisure creature comforts.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2014, 09:08:15 AM »
We are a very small, yet growing, minority.

I agree with the "very small" part. Not sure about the "growing" part.
Tim Weiman

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2014, 09:12:24 AM »
Rob, did you really even have to ask? (insert smiley)

I have played both LR and LM, not the other.  Design wise, I do agree with your assessment.  Lookout is one of those older courses with a certain charm, and no housing, of course.  LR is a pretty good example of Palmer Design and I liked it. But, the soul of the course was given over to the devil from the time the developer commissioned it!  It never started life as a course with lofty goals. 

Can't reach high goals if you don't start with high goals, in life or design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2014, 09:17:09 AM »
One of the outcomes of so much golf on colour TV?
atb

Mark Fedeli

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2014, 09:36:38 AM »
I'd go so far as to say that in some cases the majority prefer the exact opposite of what we do and hold those features up to be ideal. I know guys who play completely un-walkable courses built into the sides of mountains that are not firm and require a lot of forced carries. Each of those things (long cart rides between holes, tons of earth moved, soft and lush conditions, forced carries over trouble) are things they will point to as being what makes the course great.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2014, 09:47:31 AM »
We are a very small, yet growing, minority.

I agree with the "very small" part. Not sure about the "growing" part.

Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, and Gil Hanse were all interviewed on the Golf Channel along with Fazio and Jones. Bandon Dunes has become a mainstream golf resort. I would say interest in Golf Course Architecture is growing.
H.P.S.

BHoover

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2014, 09:54:18 AM »
I generally agree, but I'm not so sure that the general golfing public prefer soft conditions.  Sure, I think most golfers prefer emerald green to brown, and they may even prefer unwalkable courses with lots of forced carries.  But with the exception of tour pros, who know exactly how far they can carry the ball and can play with near pinpoint precision, I haven't met anyone who honestly prefers soft conditions.  Most, if not all golfers, want firm fairways so they can gain distance off the tee. 

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2014, 09:58:56 AM »
We don't play any faster or anywhere else than the majority of golfers.  We are no smarter or better informed. We all are flawed.

The OP has a stated interest in playing every US Open course, that is as standard fare as I have ever heard.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2014, 10:00:28 AM »
Rob, we're in the minority in a sense. But in another sense we're not. Stay with me here:

Retail golfers (a term I use with no disrespect, because their opinion ultimately carries a huge amount of worth) are certainly impressed by excellent course conditioning. They also enjoy heroic and exciting shots, big elevation changes, framing bunkers, and scoring well. Ask them to analyze a design, and they talk about memorable features, difficulty, fairness, and every other buzzword that has been given to them by their buddies, armchair critics, golf magazines, and the PGA.

However...

Send those same players you played with in your event around that same course every week for a year, and you'll notice that the course conditioning doesn't matter so much anymore. If the course doesn't have design merit, they'll know it. They may not be able to articulate it, but their interest in playing it over and over and over will wane. They'll still call it a good course, but they won't be excited by it anymore. On the other hand, perhaps it has more merit than you realized in your play. If it does, they'll be finding new ways to play holes and learning something every time out and relishing the challenges presented. They may still attribute it to conditioning, because that's what they can see, but their subconscious has recognized a more interesting product.

I watched Field of Dreams a few nights ago, so forgive me if I sound like James Earl Jones insisting that "People will come, Rob." But even the retail golfer recognizes good design and will be excited to play a well-designed course over and over assuming that conditions are reasonably decent and the value is one he can afford and justify. Of course, well-designed courses aren't always the ones we identify from our lofty position in the ivory tower of GCA either.

For the record, I've been pleasantly surprised by the two Palmer courses I've played and would heartily recommend both to anyone nearby, though I'm told that they're among his best work. And Hoover is right. I've been doing some informal polling lately and all my data so far suggests that golfers prefer firm and fast to soft and green by a 4:1 margin. There' s a tipping point - no one wants to play on dirt or crappy turf - but a healthy firm fast sward beats a healthy soft green sward.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Paul Carey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2014, 10:01:09 AM »
As for good Palmer designs I would suggest Musgrove Mill in SC.


Brent Hutto

Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2014, 10:06:22 AM »
Not spectacular conditions are fine by me. But at some point, conditioning absolutely trumps design.

Take the most boring "holes cut in a pasture" routing in the world. But give it fine links turf and make it dry and fast with the little puffs of dirt popping up every time a ball lands on the fairway. For good measure give me a 15mph breeze.

Now take Augusta National, set it up for the Masters or for normal member play. Your choice. But it has rained every day for a week and there has been another two inches overnight. The ball plugs on every tee shot and even the greens are soft and haven't been cut in a few days.

I would rather play the first-and-fast "boring" layout than the Alistair MacKenzie gem under those scenarios. Now in a more realistic comparison I'm guess ANGC would win out 99% of the time. But for me no amount of good design can make up for poor playing conditions and if the turf and the conditions are very, very good it takes almost no good design features at all to make for an enjoyable round.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 10:08:29 AM »
"Can't reach high goals if you don't start with high goals"

Jeff - that is spot on, I think.  And every once in a while a client comes along who thinks he can make money from high architectural goals, and then if the site is good enough and the architect is good, that client might prove to be right.

Generally, I think participation here makes our heads swell a bit, in the sense that all our discussions about great architecture leads some of us into thinking that we're good enough golfers to meaningfully interact with that architecture, which is actually not often the case; it's a pleasant self-delusion, though. The so called average golfer is in this sense a little more humble -- he knows he's a hack and so doesn't think about or demand courses that give him strategic choices/options that he knows he's not good enough to make use of.

It's no accident that the most popular and praised modern courses around here are the ones that are so designed as to allow us to maintain our self-delusions.
Peter
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 10:16:17 AM by PPallotta »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2014, 10:10:37 AM »
Well, duh!!

While I think awareness may be increasing, I am not sure interest is.  I am sure that the 2000 people who hold copies of Doak's old Confidential Guide will be the same 2000 that buy the new one when it comes out.  Or any other GCA book for that matter.

Its ok to be in the minority though.



Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2014, 10:26:02 AM »
I generally agree, but I'm not so sure that the general golfing public prefer soft conditions.  Sure, I think most golfers prefer emerald green to brown, and they may even prefer unwalkable courses with lots of forced carries.  But with the exception of tour pros, who know exactly how far they can carry the ball and can play with near pinpoint precision, I haven't met anyone who honestly prefers soft conditions.  Most, if not all golfers, want firm fairways so they can gain distance off the tee. 

We'll be splitting hairs here a bit, but I'm not so sure I agree. Leaving out the extremes, I think the general golfing public would prefer a course that's as soft as it can be without plugging and mudballs.

Everyone wants more distance on their drives, but most of these hypothetical players don't expect it as a result of roll from proper conditioning. They are far more concerned with high and straight. On approaches to the green, they expect the ball to hit and immediately stop and they consider that outcome to be the ideal. If a ball hits anywhere on the green, bounces beyond the fringe and rolls into the rough, they see that as undeserved.

In other words, the first point of contact with the ground is typically their point of focus in both aiming and outcome.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Rob Curtiss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2014, 10:28:42 AM »
John,
My standards are not held to US open courses only, and what is wrong with wanting to play all of them.

I am simply stating that I played a course that didnt seem to have many design qualities , but because it was in such good shape, that it was viewed by the golfers I played with as AWESOME. I didnt see anything Awesome.

I play all types of courses, but search for courses with charm and or character. If they are playable, then I am all in.

It amazes me how many times I get paired with guys that never see the course features- punchbowl greens /raised greens/ extremely contoured fairways when I play with them. I am always looking at the course from tee to green and then green to tee box.

They just see CONDTIONS..

Get over the fact that I want to play all the US open courses...who wouldnt...I am not seeking invites.

Sue me for looking to play with guys who love golf design.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 10:38:59 AM by Rob Curtiss »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2014, 10:29:14 AM »
I generally agree, but I'm not so sure that the general golfing public prefer soft conditions.  Sure, I think most golfers prefer emerald green to brown, and they may even prefer unwalkable courses with lots of forced carries.  But with the exception of tour pros, who know exactly how far they can carry the ball and can play with near pinpoint precision, I haven't met anyone who honestly prefers soft conditions.  Most, if not all golfers, want firm fairways so they can gain distance off the tee. 

We'll be splitting hairs here a bit, but I'm not so sure I agree. Leaving out the extremes, I think the general golfing public would prefer a course that's as soft as it can be without plugging and mudballs.

Everyone wants more distance on their drives, but most of these hypothetical players don't expect it as a result of roll from proper conditioning. They are far more concerned with high and straight. On approaches to the green, they expect the ball to hit and immediately stop and they consider that outcome to be the ideal. If a ball hits anywhere on the green, bounces beyond the fringe and rolls into the rough, they see that as undeserved.

In other words, the first point of contact with the ground is typically their point of focus in both aiming and outcome.

All I can speak for are those with whom I have played.  They don't prefer soft conditions where the ball immediately stops.

Brent Hutto

Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2014, 10:31:52 AM »
The guys I routinely play with like two opposing things. They hate to see brown spots on the course, especially in the fairways. But they love to see the ball bounce and run as far as possible on their tee shots.

Playing on Bermuda grass, that's a tough ask.

BHoover

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Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2014, 10:33:34 AM »
The guys I routinely play with like two opposing things. They hate to see brown spots on the course, especially in the fairways. But they love to see the ball bounce and run as far as possible on their tee shots.

Playing on Bermuda grass, that's a tough ask.

This summarizes the views of most of those with whom I have played.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2014, 10:58:54 AM »
Not a single golfer in the world likes cart path only and if you carry your own you are already clued in.  I would have quit this site 10 years ago if "we" were half as smart as the thousands of golfers I have met out on the course.  Thank God "we" are in the minority cause golf couldn't survive with one more no paying, money grubbing, belt knotching, list making, 5hr playing hack.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2014, 11:27:32 AM »
Yeah, a lot of this is hard to judge on one go around. As Jason mentioned, a lot of guys who liked the challenge the first time around would be tired of it after 3 or 4 rounds, once you realize there's only one way to play a hole, or that a hole is overly penal (pretty common on the Palmer designs I've played).

On the other hand, conditioning is important. The best designs in the world are no good if they're either too wet for contours to matter, or the greens aren't good enough to be able to reasonably putt, etc ...

Ed Brzezowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2014, 11:31:04 AM »
Just got back from a 5 day golf trip with eight buddies. I was told no one would ride with me beacuase " you drive to slow and are always looking around at the course". Rode due to recent knee replacement.

So yes, we are in a minority. But most great thinkers are, we are just ahead of our time.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Are GCAers the minority?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2014, 11:31:31 AM »
We are a very small, yet growing, minority.

I agree with the "very small" part. Not sure about the "growing" part.

Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, and Gil Hanse were all interviewed on the Golf Channel along with Fazio and Jones. Bandon Dunes has become a mainstream golf resort. I would say interest in Golf Course Architecture is growing.

PCraig,

I don't know that Bandon Dunes becoming "mainstream" means interest in golf architecture is growing. Did the development of the Monterey Peninsula mean interest in golf architecture was growing? Or Pinehurst? Or Blackwolf Run? Etc.

As for Doak, Urbina and Hanse being interviewed on the Golf Channel, that's great, but those names are still of interest mostly to a hard core group of people.

Most people are still into playing golf not studying architecture.
Tim Weiman

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