News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2014, 09:39:31 PM »
I find this course doesn't really look like a Pete Dye course. The shaping to me looks like someone trying to copy Dye's style. This leads me to believe that this course was done mostly, if not almost all by Perry. Am I right? I feel like I probably am.

I have more experience of Perry's course than Pete's, and it was my thinking also.

I have loads of similar photos from Dye Design's course in SE Asia.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2014, 11:51:14 PM »
What a spoiled lot we have become.  ASU is a fun course and better than many!  Good training course, keep your mind on scoring while seeing and hearing distractions around you.  Good use of bad grounds.  A lot of people would like to be able to play there.

I have thought a lot since getting a copy of the CG about why this place merited a zero.

One thing to keep in mind, is that it seems to me the point of the book was to serve as a reference of places the visiting golfer (and GCA junkie) might play while on vacation, particularly if they want to see something unique and noteworthy.

Judged on that scale, Karsten doesn't look good. It is really ugly. It's a Dye course where you mostly see features you can find at a lot of other, better, Dye courses in other parts of the country. It's not desert golf, and in theory that's good, except that the GCA junkie visiting Phoenix is likely to be interested in seeing that, since it's what's unique here. If you were traveling around the country to learn about GCA, when you got to Phoenix, Karsten would not be on your list.

Most of us aren't judging it that way, because we aren't necessarily living that life. Maybe we're residents of the area and appreciate the novelty of the best Dye offering in the area, or the novelty of a non-real estate course, or a non-desert course. Maybe you're a visitor who played some other nice tracks here but also squeezed in a round at Karsten on your way to the airport and thus you have fond memories. All of that is valid, but that's the world of difference between how so many people, even here, experience golf ... and what the point of Doak's CG really was.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2014, 11:23:53 AM »
Alright, here's the finish ...

#15, par 4. 457/419

Playing back down the hill and down wind, this hole does not play quite so long as the card suggests, but it is difficult nonetheless.

You want to drive down the left side to open up the angle of the green. From the fairway, the water right of the green is not visible—but even a first time player probably recalls it’s there based on the view from the tee.

The green is a tabletop, falling off pretty severely on every side. The water is fully ten yards from the right edge of the green, with a small swale in between. You don’t want to miss far enough right to be in the water, but if you just miss, the green slightly right is actually better than left because the swale there is low and you’re chipping back into the slope of the green. Miss way left and you’re in a bunker with a deep swale between you and a green that runs away. Or miss in that deep swale and the ball probably goes to the bottom of an are that fairway cut, so lob or flop shots are very hard, and the green is running away from you.

There’s a lot going on with this hole, including the always odd “lake above much of the surface of the rest of the hole,” but I really like this green. I’ve never seen one quite like it elsewhere.

Tee shot:


Approach from left side of fairway. Note water not visible.


Short of green


Looking back from 16 tee:



#16, par 3. 248/217

“The finishing holes are difficult in the Dye tradition—the par-3 16th is borderline impossible.” - Tom Doak, The Condfidential Guide

Well … yeah. From the 248 tee, especially. And how about this hole at 217 for guys playing a course under 6300 yards? At least there’s plenty of room left.

But from a more manageable tee, this hole is not bad. The green is in three sections, more or less L shaped, and divided by ridges. Prevailing wind is from the right, so it’s moving your ball away from the water, which is nice, I guess, although the shape of the hole makes a fade seem preferrable.

Back right hole locations are just crazy (over the bunker, toward the tree). You could lay up on this hole and be wise to not even try to chip it back there. The best way to play that shot is to take plenty of club and aim at the bunker left. There’s lots of short grass beyond the bunker, so it’s a relatively straightforward chip. If you miss it right at all you may be putting.

Middle hole locations are probably the easiest, though not if you miss left of the bunker. Front locations bring the water to the right and also in front into play. That’s a dicey shot from 200+ yards.

Just a tough, tough Dye par 3. And how about that scenic backdrop!



From the left side of the green:



#17, par 5. 581/537

This is a long par 5, uphill and into the prevailing wind.

Tee shot:


From the tee shot landing area. The green is more or less over the big bunker, which is some 100 yards shot of the green. Depending on your tee shot, you can play short of the bunker and have a blind third, or try to play long down to the left of the bunker. That opens up your third shit, but requires two really well struck shots.


Short of that bunker:


Left of the bunker:


I don’t have a picture of it, but also tricky here is that the green runs away.


#18, par 4. 471/424.

Back across the road to the trademark Dye finishing hole. Water left, mounds and bunkers right. Long and into the wind. Par here is always well earned.

Tee view:

18 shares its teeing area with #9, but plays much longer because instead of the green resting next to the lake, it wraps around the back side. For all hut the most front hole locations, your second shot (to the green) will have to carry the water.

The green seen here from about 70 yards out in the right rough. Note how the fairway up here by the green does not extend all the way to the lake. If you chose to play safe, Dye asks you to play well safe. A shot toward the right front that doesn’t get there will either find water, or undulating swales of rough.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2014, 10:09:53 PM »
Thanks for the tour Matthew.  I attended ASU but played at Papago and Ken Macdonald and wished the place would have been built. 

When I went back to play it, I was really disappointed.The place deserved a 0, in part because it cost a ton to play in the early years.  There were, as you suggest, some good holes on the course and if it is now priced reasonably I would definitely play it regularly if I lived nearby and pace of play was good.

This might have been the place where we attempted cow tipping when I was in college.  Somewhere in the middle of town there were cows grazing.  We did not succeed.  The cows were awake.

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2014, 12:04:03 AM »
Isn't a big part of the reason it got a zero the amount of money it cost to build?  The logic being that it's fine to spend $2 million on a Rembrandt, and it's fine to spend $10 on something to hang in your bathroom, but it's not good if you spend $2 million on a something to hang in your bathroom.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2014, 03:55:28 AM »
Yes, I am spoiled, but its by choice  :D.

I don't understand all the peripheral mounding.  It doesn't seem to hide the surrounding area and is itself a bit ugly and distracting.  Generally, the courses looks disjointed, fractured.  There seems to be a lot of moving parts creating a dynamic which is unsettling.  Even so, a 0 is very harsh. 

I do recall thinking of playing this course many moons ago, but laughed at the green fee (I don't recall what it was).  

Thanks for the pix Matthew.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2014, 10:57:11 AM »
Yes, I am spoiled, but its by choice  :D.

I don't understand all the peripheral mounding.  It doesn't seem to hide the surrounding area and is itself a bit ugly and distracting.  Generally, the courses looks disjointed, fractured.  There seems to be a lot of moving parts creating a dynamic which is unsettling.  Even so, a 0 is very harsh. 

I do recall thinking of playing this course many moons ago, but laughed at the green fee (I don't recall what it was).  

Thanks for the pix Matthew.  

Ciao

The majority of the mounding is to block other holes. The course is really shoehorned onto the small plot of land. Can't imagine how big you'd have to build dunes to hide the surrounds ...

Are the green fees still silly? It's never struck me as a course that was particularly expensive, but I'm playing at the resident rate. Students and faculty and others associated with the school also get good rates, though I don't know if there are restrictions on when they can play. My impression has generally been, cost-wise, that this was in between the really high end CCFADs and the lower tier of public options ... which is as it should be. But if the "tourist" rate is similar to the CCFADs ... that would be a problem.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2014, 11:09:22 AM »
ASU Karsten eliminated their senior rates this year. I paid $55 last year in prime season. 

As Matt said, the course is  "shoehorned" into the plot.  ASU is following the "highest and best use" for this land by developing it. I look forward to seeing what they will do at Papago, particularly a new club house.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ivan Lipko

Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2014, 11:50:17 AM »
I am actually starting to think that a "0" is not the worst course on the scale. It is probably a better class than "1" or "2".
The reason is that by definition "0" means "A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Resrved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place".

Thus a course just must meet the following criteria: a) be contrived; b) be unnatural; c) a ton of money should have been used for its construction. It still can be a well-conditioned championship course.

Bill Crane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2014, 01:47:13 PM »
ASU -

Golfweek rates it 29th out of the top 30 College courses in the country - narrowly beating out Lonne Poole in Raleigh, NC.

It received 4.5 stars from Golf Digest which is pretty high, and the same rating as Taconic at Williams (Mass.) which I have heard very good things about.

I mean.................hey - could be worse ...................... I didn't see a Nuclear Power Plant !!

Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

John Percival

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2014, 09:42:01 PM »
Thx for the tour, Matt.

Regarding Papago, it was mentioned here that they are doing some work on the course?
If so, can they please fix the horrible first green?
Played there two or three years ago after some time away and was stunned by how bad the opening green is (poor grammar alert).
Elevated and sloping away, it sets a scary tone for the pace of play. Just stood there, looking around and thinking maybe the construction crew had the plans backwards?
Can be a super course. Hope they get everything right this time.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2014, 11:18:43 AM »
I am actually starting to think that a "0" is not the worst course on the scale. It is probably a better class than "1" or "2".
The reason is that by definition "0" means "A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Resrved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place".

Thus a course just must meet the following criteria: a) be contrived; b) be unnatural; c) a ton of money should have been used for its construction. It still can be a well-conditioned championship course.

I agree. 1s and 2s are just bad, boring architecture. A "0" may be that, or it may be alright. It's more of a judgement about the worthiness of the project as a whole.

ASU -

Golfweek rates it 29th out of the top 30 College courses in the country - narrowly beating out Lonne Poole in Raleigh, NC.

It received 4.5 stars from Golf Digest which is pretty high, and the same rating as Taconic at Williams (Mass.) which I have heard very good things about.

I mean.................hey - could be worse ...................... I didn't see a Nuclear Power Plant !!

Wm Flynnfan

I don't really know a lot about the criteria for that collegiate course ranking. Every school with a team has a "home" course, but I don't think all are eligible for that ranking. Is Top 30 good? Or could they not find many more than 30 to fit the criteria?

Thx for the tour, Matt.

Regarding Papago, it was mentioned here that they are doing some work on the course?
If so, can they please fix the horrible first green?
Played there two or three years ago after some time away and was stunned by how bad the opening green is (poor grammar alert).
Elevated and sloping away, it sets a scary tone for the pace of play. Just stood there, looking around and thinking maybe the construction crew had the plans backwards?
Can be a super course. Hope they get everything right this time.

I don't believe I have read anything about work being planned on the course at Papago. It just went through a pretty major overhaul fish (?) years ago.

ASU signed a deal to operate the course and make it the home of their golf teams. I believe part of the deal was to build a new clubhouse. The old one was torn down as part of the renovation and a new one has never been put up.

The first green is tricky, but I'm not sure it's a problem.

Jordan Caron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2014, 04:00:06 PM »
When I was growing up this course was the test to see if you could play University golf. I didn't mind it back then as it was a sold challenge. But I use to like a lot of different courses in those days.

A friend is playing there at the end of the month. We'll see what he says but I would like to play it again some 15 years later.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2014, 06:55:25 PM »
I am actually starting to think that a "0" is not the worst course on the scale. It is probably a better class than "1" or "2".
The reason is that by definition "0" means "A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Resrved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place".

Thus a course just must meet the following criteria: a) be contrived; b) be unnatural; c) a ton of money should have been used for its construction. It still can be a well-conditioned championship course.

The zero ratings were the most controversial part of the Guide, and were blown out of proportion a bit ... I'll never forget the article in GOLFWEEK which defended them, using the writer's round at Stone Harbor as evidence. :) 

As you suggest, a "0" was never intended to be the worst course on the scale, except in the sense of it being something completely at odds with my tastes.  A lot of these courses would get a 5 or 6 on others' scales.  I even rated a couple of courses 0-5 acknowledging as much.

However, most of the best college courses you could go and play are only a 5 or 6 on the Doak scale.  The Stanford course is a 5 or a 6, and there is no contest which one you'd rather play.  Likewise, if you were going to Phoenix on holiday, the Karsten course was not worth considering as somewhere you'd want to play, even though a lot of people would assume [university course, big budget, Pete Dye, Karsten] that it was.

So, perhaps the 0 was overkill ... perhaps they all were ... but it made the point I wanted to make.

P.S.  The project was a Pete and Perry Dye collaboration ... Pete was there a few times and had significant input.  I know that because Jim Urbina ran the job and did a lot of shaping.  No offense to any of them, I just thought they might have found better projects to concentrate on.

P.P.S.  I was there for a college tournament once, going around with Mike Holder's Oklahoma State team for a practice round.  When they got to 16, Coach Holder told his players that under no circumstances were they to aim for the flag ... they should all aim for the left edge of the green, and be happy to chip and putt to take a big number out of the picture.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2014, 07:21:23 PM »
It must be so liberating. I mean, if you're Pete Dye and you get your "0" out of the way, you're FREE. You never have to worry again that one day you MIGHT create a bad golf course. Luckily for Mr. Dye, though, his "0" came well into a successful career. If you START with a "0" the first time out, your career probably dead in the water!

Peter

Gary_K

Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2014, 08:06:58 PM »
The ASU course is not a zero when coming from NW Iowa and 0 to -15 degree temps to play it in late January.  :)  As previously mention, the surroundings aren't very pretty if you really look around.  If you focus on the hole your playing, you really don't notice the power lines, towers, buildings, etc. 

For a winter golf trip, the course is very enjoyable (except the par 4 hole #5 with its hidden front greenside bunker, grrrrr).  For many, there is a certain level of excitement to play a Pete Dye course.  To play on Phil's college course.  Architecturally, that doesn't mean much, but there is more to golf than just the architecture (gasp!).  For many winter tourists, swinging a club with the temps around 70 degrees, the sun shining on our pale skin and having a fun round with friends, this course rates high for fun because of who built it and who played there.  That may sound cheesy, but it's part of the experience.  For many golfers, those intangibles aren't easily available.  Oh, I was told the tap beer is/was very cold.

Gary K

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2014, 08:38:21 PM »
It must be so liberating. I mean, if you're Pete Dye and you get your "0" out of the way, you're FREE. You never have to worry again that one day you MIGHT create a bad golf course. Luckily for Mr. Dye, though, his "0" came well into a successful career. If you START with a "0" the first time out, your career probably dead in the water!

Peter

I have my doubts that this is a true Pete Dye course. I would guess just by looking at it that his son Perry was responsible. In the 80s there were a lot of "Pete and PB Dye" and "Pete and Perry Dye" courses, which usually meant Pete had very little to do with those courses.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2014, 09:02:11 AM »
It must be so liberating. I mean, if you're Pete Dye and you get your "0" out of the way, you're FREE. You never have to worry again that one day you MIGHT create a bad golf course. Luckily for Mr. Dye, though, his "0" came well into a successful career. If you START with a "0" the first time out, your career probably dead in the water!

Peter

I have my doubts that this is a true Pete Dye course. I would guess just by looking at it that his son Perry was responsible. In the 80s there were a lot of "Pete and PB Dye" and "Pete and Perry Dye" courses, which usually meant Pete had very little to do with those courses.

Matt, I totally agree.  I might be wrong, but it seems like Pete didn't do much of the awful peripheral mounding at his courses.  He may have done some, but typically I feel like he preferred to put mounding where it would come into play.  It could be that he chose the best sites, so he didn't feel the need for mounding, but I still feel like he didn't use it as frequently.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2014, 11:18:38 AM »
  I might be wrong, but it seems like Pete didn't do much of the awful peripheral mounding at his courses.  He may have done some, but typically I feel like he preferred to put mounding where it would come into play. 

Have you played PGA West Stadium?  It has some of the most ornate mounding that does not come into play that I have ever seen.  What about Whistling Straits? 

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Zero Looks Like: A Photo Tour Of ASU Karsten - Tempe, AZ (Dye)
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2014, 11:44:18 AM »

I haven't played PGA West...although I was under the impression it was done in the style of TPC Sawgrass...which both have mounding, but for spectators and at least at TPC, is on a much larger scale than the crappy view-blocking style like this.

I don't think there's anything even remotely similar on Whistling Straits.  Yeah, it has a lot of mounding, but nothing specifically done to "enclose" a hole.  Also at a much larger scale.


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back