[John Kavanaugh]

I can only recall playing three courses in L.A. and they all seem to be about the walk. Riviera, Lakeside and Rustic are as fine as walking courses can be. Aren't they all?  Is L.A. possibly the finest walking golf environment in the country?  Not to be coy but WTF is up with DM and this constant bitch about carts. It seems to me that every great new course built today is serious about the walking golfer. What am I missing?

[DMoriarty]

I can only recall playing three courses in L.A. and they all seem to be about the walk. Riviera, Lakeside and Rustic are as fine as walking courses can be. Aren't they all?  Is L.A. possibly the finest walking golf environment in the country?  Not to be coy but WTF is up with DM and this constant bitch about carts. It seems to me that every great new course built today is serious about the walking golfer. What am I missing?

Not really sure this sort of post is in the spirit of Ran's website.  Nonetheless . . .

I haven't started a single thread about carts in ages. But recently there have been a number of threads essentially asking, What's the Matter With Designing for Cart Ball? If people don't really want answers they should probably quit asking this question.

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

Every thread that you post on turns into nothing but a bane argument read by no one except the offended. I want to know what has made you so angry. It can not be the golfing options accorded to you in LA. They are excellent and walking in nature. Anyone else would consider themselves lucky to have the golfing options presented to you in our current state. What is your problem?

Truth is, we all have it better now than ever before. More choices, less money, greater access. Your bitterness is destructive.

I started this thread in case I am missing something. Please tell me.

[John Kavanaugh]

Since the cakehorn on DM isn't blowing, perhaps the other unhappy golfers of our day can explain. Where are these cartball courses being built? Where do you live where you can't play however you choose. Who wouldn't love to be young, thin and rich in LA?  Is there a better town to live and golf your balls?

[Bill_McBride]

John, your personal bitterness shines through.  I know from personal experience that David is a walker. 

Many if not most courses built in the last 30-40 years have factored in the easy access to carts.  Almost every course on the Robert Trent Jones Trail in Alabama features a half mile green to tee transition.  Many were designed around housing developments with lengthy rides across residential streets. 

The walking courses either existed before (Riviera, Lakeside) or were designed by a select group of modern designers (Rustic, Pacific Dunes). 

[John Kavanaugh]

The courses of the Robert Trent Jones Trail are built along the interstates so we can easily drive by. Truthfully they are best played either before or after tailgating an SEC football game. Personally, carts are in order.

[DMoriarty]

I started this thread in case I am missing something. Please tell me.

More like you started this thread so you could try and take shots at me in front of a slightly larger audience.  But whatever your reasons, I am not interested in engaging with you.

I don't post seeking your approval. No one is making you read my posts.  No one is demanding you respond to them.  If you don't like them, you can choose to ignore them. There's a choice for you.    

[Jim Nugent]

Kind of weird to read the title to this thread, and then see it morph into an anti-David Moriarty theme. 

As to John's purported question, I played two L.A. area courses that are cart-ball all the way.  Pelican Hill north and south courses.  Back in the 1990s I'm not even sure if walking was allowed there. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Kind of weird to read the title to this thread, and then see it morph into an anti-David Moriarty theme. 

As to John's purported question, I played two L.A. area courses that are cart-ball all the way.  Pelican Hill north and south courses.  Back in the 1990s I'm not even sure if walking was allowed there. 

We all understand there was a dark period where architecture was lost. Even at that I don't see where tourist traps or housing developments should be held to the same standard of the great clubs or courses intended for local play.  Where in LA are locals forced to play cartball on a piece of walkable property? 

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

I appreciate your efforts to turn the thread in a more productive direction, but it was meant as nothing more than the latest hit piece by Kavanaugh.

The Pelican Hill courses are good examples of Los Angeles cart ball courses, built and recently redone by a prominent designer, Tom Fazio.  I haven't played the new versions, but I have heard they are just as un-walkable as ever.  [As an aside, it is ironic the founder of the "Fazio Society" wants to dismiss those two courses as "tourist traps" and products of "a dark period where architecture was lost."  I can only imagine the hate-filled vitriol and personal insults I'd have to endure if I'd made these same observations.]    As for Los Angeles cart ball courses, unfortunately the path doesn't end at Pelican Hill . . .

Kavanaugh asked, "Where are these cartball courses being built?"   Off the top of my head, here are the courses built in the past two decades, all within about a 45 minute drive from my house (which is in West Los Angeles, and I think was the epicenter of this morning's earthquake.)

Angeles National
Cascades (NLE)
TPC Valencia
Robinson Ranch Mountain
Robinson Ranch Valley
Lost Canyon Sky
Lost Canyon Shadow
Rustic Canyon
Moorpark Country Club (27 holes)
Tierra Rejada
Sterling Hills
Trump National

There may be more, but these are the ones that immediately came to mind.  Of these 12+ courses all are cartball courses except Rustic Canyon.

[Joe Perches]

Sterling Hills - cartball course

Though I haven't played it in several years, Sterling is a pretty easy walk actually.

Carts are not included in the green fee and are not required there so I wouldn't call it
a cartball course.

I think the sum total of green to tee distance there is much shorter than Rustic.

[Bill Seitz]

Jim,

I appreciate your efforts to turn the thread in a more productive direction, but it was meant as nothing more than the latest hit piece by Kavanaugh.

The Pelican Hill courses are good examples of Los Angeles cart ball courses, built and recently redone by a prominent designer, Tom Fazio.  I haven't played the new versions, but I have heard they are just as un-walkable as ever.  [As an aside, it is ironic the founder of the "Fazio Society" wants to dismiss those two courses as "tourist traps" and products of "a dark period where architecture was lost."  I can only imagine the hate-filled vitriol and personal insults I'd have to endure if I'd made these same observations.]    As for Los Angeles cart ball courses, unfortunately the path doesn't end at Pelican Hill . . .

Kavanaugh asked, "Where are these cartball courses being built?"   Off the top of my head, here are the courses built in the past two decades, all within about a 45 minute drive from my house (which is in West Los Angeles, and I think was the epicenter of this morning's earthquake.)

Angeles National
Cascades (NLE)
TPC Valencia
Robinson Ranch Mountain
Robinson Ranch Valley
Lost Canyon Sky
Lost Canyon Shadow
Rustic Canyon
Moorpark Country Club (27 holes)
Tierra Rejada
Sterling Hills
Trump National

There may be more, but these are the ones that immediately came to mind.  Of these 12+ courses all are cartball courses except Rustic Canyon.

Oak Quarry and Talega are a little longer drive for you, but I'd add those to the list.  Also cart-ball courses. 

[David_Tepper]

"Is L.A. possibly the finest walking golf environment in the country?"

I doubt it is. With Olympic, SFGC, Harding Park, Lake Merced and the Cal Club, San Francisco and environs are at least as strong.

[Jim Nugent]

Kind of weird to read the title to this thread, and then see it morph into an anti-David Moriarty theme. 

As to John's purported question, I played two L.A. area courses that are cart-ball all the way.  Pelican Hill north and south courses.  Back in the 1990s I'm not even sure if walking was allowed there. 

We all understand there was a dark period where architecture was lost. Even at that I don't see where tourist traps or housing developments should be held to the same standard of the great clubs or courses intended for local play. 

Fazio designed/built the Pelican Hills courses in the 1990s.  I remember first playing there in late 1991.  The first course (the south) had recently opened.  Was that the dark period of GCA? 

Maybe I was wrong, but my impression was that in those days the course mostly got local play.  Plenty of money in that Newport/Laguna area, and they offered some decent twilight deals.   

You're right that they ended up building lots of houses around the courses.  I thought the south maybe had three or so interesting holes: 5, 15 and 18.  Only played the north once, and don't remember much of it. 

[Bill Seitz]

Kind of weird to read the title to this thread, and then see it morph into an anti-David Moriarty theme. 

As to John's purported question, I played two L.A. area courses that are cart-ball all the way.  Pelican Hill north and south courses.  Back in the 1990s I'm not even sure if walking was allowed there. 

We all understand there was a dark period where architecture was lost. Even at that I don't see where tourist traps or housing developments should be held to the same standard of the great clubs or courses intended for local play. 

Fazio designed/built the Pelican Hills courses in the 1990s.  I remember first playing there in late 1991.  The first course (the south) had recently opened.  Was that the dark period of GCA? 

Didn't they close those down and largely rebuild them?  I thought they were originally the Ocean and Links courses.  Didn't have the money to play them back then.  Don't really have the interest to play them now.

[Garland Bayley]

Sterling Hills - cartball course

Though I haven't played it in several years, Sterling is a pretty easy walk actually.

Carts are not included in the green fee and are not required there so I wouldn't call it
a cartball course.

I think the sum total of green to tee distance there is much shorter than Rustic.

 

You don't have to cross streets and walk around the end of cul-de-sacs at Rustic.

[Alex Miller]

Where do you live where you can't play however you choose. Who wouldn't love to be young, thin and rich in LA?  Is there a better town to live and golf your balls?

Overcrowded courses, inflated prices, and abysmal pace of play. And this is on the courses that you CAN play (public), which outside of Rustic are nothing special, IF you get a tee time. I think nearly every other metro area has more courses per capita, so really there is not a ton to choose from!

I'm going to assume "golf your balls" is a euphamism here... but with 2/3rds of your requisites I'll say that I love LA and manage to enjoy the golf out here 12 months out of the year. 

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Kind of weird to read the title to this thread, and then see it morph into an anti-David Moriarty theme. 

As to John's purported question, I played two L.A. area courses that are cart-ball all the way.  Pelican Hill north and south courses.  Back in the 1990s I'm not even sure if walking was allowed there. 

We all understand there was a dark period where architecture was lost. Even at that I don't see where tourist traps or housing developments should be held to the same standard of the great clubs or courses intended for local play. 

Fazio designed/built the Pelican Hills courses in the 1990s.  I remember first playing there in late 1991.  The first course (the south) had recently opened.  Was that the dark period of GCA? 

Didn't they close those down and largely rebuild them?  I thought they were originally the Ocean and Links courses.  Didn't have the money to play them back then.  Don't really have the interest to play them now.

Just played the North.  I think it offer more interest than the South, although is missing the eye candy that South has with the 2 or 3 holes near the ocean.  Wouldn't spend my own money to play there, but it was a lovely place to spend a few hours.

[Joe Perches]

Sterling Hills - cartball course

I think the sum total of green to tee distance there is much shorter than Rustic.

You don't have to cross streets and walk around the end of cul-de-sacs at Rustic.

I didn't say it was a nicer walk or a nicer course.  It's neither  I think it's shorter green to tee though.

[Scott Weersing]

There are other walking public courses in LA.  Like Rancho Park.

Brookside, 36 holes in Pasadena, Santa Anita GC, Olivas Links in Ventura.

Los Serranos, 36 holes in Chino.

Trump International and Los Verdes in Palos Verdes.

I would say most of the walking courses were built prior to 1960.

Other cart courses that make LA, all about the cart: Industry Hills, (hey the LPGA played there so I guess it can be walked).

[John Kavanaugh]

This is not about public courses. This site never is. LA offers opportunities for people from all over the world of all races, creeds and personal preferences to earn their way into any club private or public. Why are we tip toeing around all the great walking courses?  Must be a dozen.

[Jon McSweeny]

There are other walking public courses in LA.  Like Rancho Park.

In addition to the courses mentioned, LA County has 19 courses or so- a few of which are 9 holes- but essentially all of them are walkable. And not just theoretically walkable, but comfortably and consistently so. Likewise the Long Beach tracks (Big Rec, Skylinks, EL Do) are all comfortable walks.

OC has the Miles Square courses, Costa Mesa courses, the Navy courses and then the little guys like the Wick, Meadowlark, Dad Miller, Fullerton. Tustin Ranch is also quite walkable.

Granted, they are crowded (and/or expensive.) But its tough to blame architects for that problem. As it happens, the LA Area has a lot of people and many of them seem to want to play golf.

More generally, looking at the list of recent courses (and adding a few that aren't on there like Westridge, Black Gold, Coyote Hills) it seems to me a bigger issue is that it is going to be very difficult to find a chunk of land in LA/OC that can accommodate a comfortable walking course. However they were routed, Pelican Hills was going to be a tough walk giving the terrain involved. Some of the others on that list suffer from similar geographic constraints.

It would seem that the biggest issue is that it is very hard to get the acreage you need to build a new course in the LA/OC area. To the extent that you can get it, the odds are that it will either be hillside (and thus tough to walk) or the acreage will be part of a much larger development (fostering the  necessity lengthy transitions) or feature some other challenges (flood control, power lines, environmentally sensitive areas, freeways) that will also make it hard to design a compact lay out.

To be sure, worrying about whether or not a course is walkable is a very recent consideration for me, and not one that personally interests me all that much, so I could be off on this. And I'm sure some of the recent courses could have been made much more walker-friendly. That said, I think suggesting that the lack of recently built walkable courses in LA/OC is simply a design issue misses some of the complexities of why that may be.

And besides, there is always the Goose!

[Tim Leahy]

At least LA has no "walking only" courses that give no option at all.

[John Kavanaugh]

At least LA has no "walking only" courses that give no option at all.

I called Trump National today because after looking at the routing it looked walkable. They told me that even if I paid for the cart I could not walk. I am shocked that they don't have caddies at the very least.

[Nigel Islam]

At least LA has no "walking only" courses that give no option at all.

I called Trump National today because after looking at the routing it looked walkable. They told me that even if I paid for the cart I could not walk. I am shocked that they don't have caddies at the very least.

That is something I will never understand. I honestly don't think pace of play is faster with carts (as a general rule), and if you pay "full" price you should have the option.

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