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Ran Morrissett

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GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« on: August 12, 2003, 09:26:59 PM »
How do the two tastes seem to differ?

On the one hand, the GOLF panelists seem to have an appreciation for subtlety that escapes  :-* some of the regulars who post on GCA.com (witness the rankings of Shoreacres, Yeamans Hall, and Hidden Creek).

On the other, the GOLF panelists also seem to favor tournament tough courses like Torrey Pines, Colonial and East Lake, which typically curry little favor with the regulars here.

Both groups are very well traveled and I would venture to say that at least ten GCA.com regulars have played Friar's Head, Rustic Canyon, Holston Hills, and The Kingsley Club though I doubt ten have played Kauri Cliffs and Cape Breton Highlands.

Based on the above, one positive that stands out to me is the eclectic nature of GOLF's final rankings - they cover a wide and diverse range of architecture, which is HEALTHY and as it SHOULD BE (I personally wish Dick Wilson and RTJ Sr. were better represented/more discussed by both groups).

Cheers,
« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 09:31:35 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Dave_Miller

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2003, 09:51:32 PM »
Ran:
While I have never been very big on rankings I need to digest your thoughts a little more in order to try and respond intelligently.

There is a magazine in Massachusetts that ranks the top 25 private clubs in Mass, yet leaves off clubs such as Belmont, Pine Brook, Charles River, Myopia, etc. in favor of such poorly designed courses as the Ridge Cub, Willowbend, and some others that are architecturally unsound and boring (the term goat path comes to mind).

In addition there are some others that are just bad golf courses yet they are included.

Not sure, Golf's Most Beloved, that you give the GCA'ers enough credit.  All in all they are a pretty good lot.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

TEPaul

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2003, 10:03:29 PM »
I'm not sure it's a matter of Ran not giving Golfclubatlasers enough credit but it might be a matter of him giving golf course ranking panelists too much credit--at the very least in their capacity to truly appreciate the whole world of the class golf course.

I like to say--golf and its architecture is a great big game and there really is room in it for everyone---. I'm not too sure that some Golfclubatlasers really truly feel that way when it comes to architecture. I get the feeling sometimes that some Golfclubatlasers feel that a good slice of the American golfing public should just take their architectural preferences, shitcan them, and just leave golf and architecture alone and go bowling instead!

GeoffreyC

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2003, 10:11:57 PM »
Ran- that's the first time I've ever heard a Raynor course being called subtle.   ???

Dave_Miller

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2003, 10:13:58 PM »
I'm not sure it's a matter of Ran not giving Golfclubatlasers enough credit but it might be a matter of him giving golf course ranking panelists too much credit--at the very least in their capacity to truly appreciate the whole world of the class golf course.

 

Tommy:
Is there really a difference??  Too many raters I know work off the fact that a club may have had a "Major", in the early 19 whatever years, and have no idea that it is not a good course and has many holes that are poorly designed.  
I don't want to get in hot water but there is more than one in our area.
Thanks for last week
Best always,
Dave
« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 10:16:46 PM by Dave_Miller »

JLahrman

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2003, 10:14:10 PM »
I'll say one thing.  I don't know all the Golf magazine panelists, but I don't think they could possibly have the attention to detail that some people on this forum do.  I'm certainly not an expert on architecture.  I come to this forum more to learn and read than to contribute (didn't start posting until I had been reading for a year).  I'm not in the league of a lot of guys here architecture-wise although I'm a fairly good player.  I know a good design when I play it, but can't define it nearly as well as many people here.

But I think the only thing that separates me from *some* of the Golf panelists is that they have played more courses than me.  Especially several ex-panelists.  Even if I were to play all these courses, I don't think I would be qualified to start ranking them for a national publication.

Although were we to turn rankings over to GCA, I could sense a paralysis-by-analysis tune taking over.  We could probably only put out one ranking every ten years.

Dave_Miller

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2003, 10:22:47 PM »
 I'm certainly not an expert on architecture.  I come to this forum more to learn and read than to contribute (didn't start posting until I had been reading for a year).  I'm not in the league of a lot of guys here architecture-wise although I'm a fairly good player.  I know a good design when I play it, but can't define it nearly as well as many people here.

 

JAL:

Maybe you Don't think you know architecture but you are eloquent when it comes to Describing golf course architecture.  

To quote the late Justice Powell " I know it when I see it".

Keep up the good work.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

Mike_Cirba

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2003, 11:42:44 PM »
Ran;

Which courses from RTJ Sr. and Dick Wilson do you think belong on the Golf Magazine Top 100 in the US, and which courses would they displace?

I love variety, too.  I also love to see great courses from different eras recognized, yet I find some pretty peculiar admissions and omissions from the most recent Golf Magazine rankings.  I'm just curious to hear which courses you think should be part of the list and which you think are overrated.

Also, I'm curious to hear how many panelists need to play a course for it to be considered for inclusion on the Golf Magazine listing.

Thanks for any info you feel comfortable providing.  
« Last Edit: August 12, 2003, 11:43:24 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2003, 07:46:54 AM »
"There are probably 100 or 200 courses that can be in the bottom half of the 100. But none of them is heading for the top 25."

Mayday Malone

Ran,

I agree with Mayday's statement, and I think it explains much of the current debate. Getting Lehigh on that list is great for HV, Rolling Green and all the Flynn courses. There never seems to be much argument over the Top 25. Even Pacific Dunes leaping up the list brought out only a comment or two, which make me think it belongs, and I need to get myself out there !!

I am not sure how Golf compiles its list statistically. While not possesing a PhD in statistics, my guess is that the statistical separation  in Golf Digest between Mayday's 51 and 251 is smaller that the separation between 1 and 50. That said, I am surprised that Golf did not have more movement in the bottom 50 with all the new panelist.

Hopefully you can embrace the fact that the GCAers have dissected, discussed and ripped apart the Golf list on your forum, and it has not even been released yet to the readers of Golf Magazine :D

RJ_Daley

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2003, 10:35:23 AM »
I'll try and stammer an answer as to what is different between the "tastes" of the broad body of contributors to GCA and the panelists named on about the last page of the Golf Mag top 100 thread.  In looking at the list of names, and having had a pretty fair sampling of meeting various GCA junkies, I'd say that those on the list have a greater career or vested interest in the game or the industry of golf.  They are predominantely fine players at the pro or high stakes amatuer levels, or architects(or dabble in both) or association rules committe directors .  The panelists are obviously far more widely travelled than the main cross section of GCAers.  Although we have some extensively well travelled contributors on the GCA (some who even have a legendary nicknames to highlight that fact like "America's Guest  ;) ), for the most part, we GCAers are not so closely associated with the game as to have seen the large sampling nationally or world wide, because we are regular type joes who can't in practicality obtain that kind of exposure to the universe of golf courses.

I'd say it is much the same as any club when it comes to tastes.  The panelists form a certain body of conventional wisdom and group knowledge that relates to their group's common ties to the golf industry, and GCAers are provincial, and often reinforce our own thoughts as we converse here on the internet.  That is not to say that GCAers nor the panelists are one more ignorant or savvy of the nuts and bolts of design than the other group, except for the actual panelist archies and construction related people.

Our GCA learning curve is steeper, and can not catch up to the panelists because of access to the cream of the crop in storied and exclusive courses and everyday ability to make time in our lives, or afford to see them.  But, the desire of the GCAer is higher to learn.  I think that the passion to participate in GCA demonstrates an interest factor in design that is higher than the panelists, and that the panelists may in fact be a bit elite in that regard, as they know they have greater exposure, and may look down on the more focused GCA participants and their search for the essence of the subject of golf course design.

The panelists create the buzz through their conventional wisdom and group selections, and the GCAers (though many of us put down the notion of such priority on the importance or meaning of lists) can't stop talking about the damn lists.  ::)
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Michael Moore

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2003, 10:46:00 AM »
But, the desire of the GCAer is higher to learn.

That's what I'm talkin' about !!

Excellent thread.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

ChipRoyce

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2003, 11:22:02 AM »
I agree that the variation in tastes in the rankings is healthy.

Let me use the analogy of movie reviewers to illustrate the point:

Don't know if you pay attention - but there is a wide variety of movie reviewers out there. Some are blatant "shills" for the big budget, mass marketed studio flicks (Ishtar probably recieved a positive mention upon release).

Others' tastes are so esoteric that only the art house film deserves anything more than a prejudiced sneer. While these folks have the cigarette dangling from their holder and a beret on, I've tended to appreciate these folks in making us aware of foreign and low-budget films - often as good or better than what comes out of Hollywood.

Lastly, there's a group of excellent reviewers - Dennis Cunninham out of CBS in New York in the early 80's for instance, who are just good reviewers - can seperate the wheat from the chaff - no matter who made the film and its target audience.

Where am I going with this?

One of the big attractions to GCA for me is that the site tends to be populated by:

1) Folks who are good reviewers, period. No matter what you think of a particular architect (Fazio come to mind) sometimes he can build an good / enjoyable course.

and

2) The "art house" folks - so skewed in their opinions in one certain way, that I makes me take a candid look at a particular architect or style - whether I agree or not.

Dan Herrmann

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2003, 01:40:16 PM »
Ran,
You bring up Cape Breton Highlands as a course not many here have played.   I can see why - it's tough to get to, and not often mentioned with other great courses.

Actually, the review of CBH actually prompted my wife and I to drive two days to Nova Scotia to play - it was well worth it.

Here's where I'm going - would it be possible to build a spot where we can indicate which courses we've played/seen?  It'd be great to see just how many played/walked CBH versus Shinnecock versus Pacific Dunes, for example.   A poll of sorts...

Thanks!

Norbert P

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2003, 01:52:47 PM »
 The whole idea of "The Official Ranking" of the mags irks me.  Perhaps I'm just a antiestablishmentarian but it's too static a list.  It sits there and stares at me with smug self-righteousness.  Like a false idol it speaks, "I am your answer to quantifying golfing greatness.  Here is where the gods conspire and share with mortals."
  I much rather enjoy reading about golf courses in the Darwinian or Fineganian prose.  Or Simpson and Wethered instructionality of design ideals.  

  Which brings us to GCA and it's passionate posters.  There is emotional content in what is written here as opposed to a laboratory test outcome mentality of the mags; ie., "These are the absolute results of the subject courses. Numbered by their importance as we experts agree"   I say "Bah!"  

  Without GCA.com we'd be dummied by brochures and magazine hypetripe.  

  There just aren't absolutes in golf critiquing where I'm concerned.  I get a lot more out of reading the excitement from Adam Clayman about Black Mesa than I would by seeing it attain TOP 100 status.  

 (Adam, you ARE in my TOP 100 People list)



 
 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

RJ_Daley

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2003, 02:10:42 PM »
Salg, as always, you boiled down the subject to something even I can understand! ;)

BTW, what color berret are you wearing today?  Good analogy, Chip. ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2003, 02:55:40 PM »
Slag,

I agree with you about method of analysis on here being 'so much more'.  I admit I enjoy looking at and discussing all of the lists that come out.  I've followed the GD list for so many years, taking it as gospel for so long, then gradually forming my own opinions after getting to travel a little more and play some of the better public courses around the country.

But the one thing I've never done and still can't do, is personally rank the courses I've played, even just the top 10 or 25 or whatever, because it's just so subjective (although naming the top course is easy).  Also, what I like has changed over the years.  I find it easier to put courses in groupings of, say, 10 each, where each would rate similarly, but even that's tough.

Describing what you like and don't like is easier than quanitfying it, even for me, a statistician.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2003, 02:56:31 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Jim Franklin

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2003, 02:59:47 PM »
Scott -

So what's the top course?
Mr Hurricane

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2003, 03:20:13 PM »
CPC

THuckaby2

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2003, 03:23:35 PM »
Scott:

Wait until you get to Sand Hills, NGLA, Shinnecock, certain others... I'm sure those days will come... then even the choice for #1 ain't so easy.  ;)

I'm kinda with you re personal rankings in any case - mind do change all the time, depending on how I feel.  Thus I never get farther than #5 or so, and even those 5 can change on a whim.

TH


Michael Dugger

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2003, 03:47:47 PM »
Cool thread

One thing I'll say about ratings is that you can bet that most of the upper echelon courses truly belong there.  I like to remember it is that light.
 
I may like Chianti, Tommy may like Merlot, but we both know either is better than wine from a box    
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bill_McBride

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2003, 05:10:37 PM »
I have a truly great memory which involved wine in a box   ;D, and I have some favorite courses which would never make anybody's Top 100 anything list.  Is this a bad thing?

THuckaby2

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2003, 05:18:35 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D

I was gonna say something similar about wine in a box, Bill!

And darn right, there is no right or wrong, good or bad in any of this.  

My favorite course on this planet is a 9-hole par3 course that Tommy put a picture of up here the other day... No one will ever convince me it's any "worse" than Cypress Point, for what it means to me.  I believe a bit of this - personal experience - factors into anyone's "rankings", whether they admit it or not.

I for one admit it with no shame.

TH

Ran Morrissett

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2003, 08:08:34 PM »
One apparent difference between the two groups is that stepped on courses like Oak Hill and Scioto and Inverness and Oakland Hills where the clubs shows little sympathy for the original Golden Age architect's work don't generate much discussion on this site but are all highly ranked by GOLF (and Golf Digest as well).

Tom Paul can dash off a 1,000 words on a bunker forty yards off line at NGLA and I doubt 1,000 words have been typed about those four courses combined since this site was started!

Cheers,

RJ_Daley

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Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2003, 09:25:35 PM »
Quote
...stepped on courses like Oak Hill and Scioto and Inverness and Oakland Hills...don't generate much discussion on this site but are all highly ranked by GO

Ran, I'd be interested to hear just how many, or what percentage of contributors to GCA have actually played these courses, and how many have played them in their previous not so stepped on presentations?  Even Tom Paul might not want to write a 1000 words on courses he has never seen.  Although in Tom's case he probably played all of them with Fireball Roberts ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Glen_Fergo

Re:GOLF panelists vs. GCA.com regulars
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2003, 11:05:06 PM »
Finally a good level headed response to a thread that goes straight to the heart of the topic without trying to appear superior to the other opinions.

We all must remember that these rankings are done by human beings and there will always be differences.

Despite what an individual may think about someone elses view nobody looks for things in the design of a course exactly the same as someone.

Viva la difference!!!
I'll say one thing.  I don't know all the Golf magazine panelists, but I don't think they could possibly have the attention to detail that some people on this forum do.  I'm certainly not an expert on architecture.  I come to this forum more to learn and read than to contribute (didn't start posting until I had been reading for a year).  I'm not in the league of a lot of guys here architecture-wise although I'm a fairly good player.  I know a good design when I play it, but can't define it nearly as well as many people here.

But I think the only thing that separates me from *some* of the Golf panelists is that they have played more courses than me.  Especially several ex-panelists.  Even if I were to play all these courses, I don't think I would be qualified to start ranking them for a national publication.

Although were we to turn rankings over to GCA, I could sense a paralysis-by-analysis tune taking over.  We could probably only put out one ranking every ten years.