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Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2014, 02:12:01 PM »
Kevin,

#11 is a par 3 (to put things into context).  From the back tee, it is usually a 5 iron...and I am not long at all.  From the 'handicap' tees, you are probably looking at no more than a 7 iron.  The awful and misplaced ;D natural area to the left is a good 50 yards off the center line(?!)...again a 7 iron for many. 

Apparently, my sense of scale is not very good.  Looked like a neat par 4 with a centerline hazard to me.  But my "native grass" detector was going off, so I got distracted. ;D

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2014, 02:21:37 PM »
This discussion of "before" & "after" has me thinking about strategies to bring committee members on board in terms of tree removal / reduction.

As we saw from some of the reactions above, it can be jarring to see a "before" of trees and the "after" of complete removal.  I suspect some courses may balk just given the extreme difference.

What I'm wondering is whether it's sometimes better to show a "before" of the course 15-20 years ago vs. the current state.  Members may be used to some type of trees, but not realize just how much the trees have shrunk corridors or eclipsed former views.  I found some photos of my home course I took  approx. 9 years ago, and the growth is stunning, even though I hadn't consciously registered the change over my continuous years playing there.  At the very least, this type of visual may help towards a "thinning" program.



Greg Taylor

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2014, 03:25:16 PM »
Context is the key for me - there has to be a balance. That said if trees obscure a view then there's a strong argument - everyone eats with their eyes.

One other factor I would say that trees, in the UK at least, are deemed to be a character of old courses hence "better" - not that I agree.

Also, there's the perception that once cut down there's no going back, hence the risk aversion.

No matter how much as purists we like the idea of tree removal the average Joe will mostly think otherwise.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2014, 03:34:51 PM »
Greg

Do you think it's somewhat arrogant to class yourself as a purist and anyone who disagrees as an average joe?

You had it right in your first line, IMO.

I don't see any recovered vistas In most of the pictures above. Your idea risks becoming a dogma.

How much tree removal would you do at sunningdale old? (With your purist cap on)

Greg Taylor

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2014, 03:38:18 PM »
IMHO if you're on this website you're a purist...!

A straw poll members here when asked if tree removal was a good thing, I think it would be at 90%...

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2014, 03:43:47 PM »
I think that's a dangerous assumption. It means everyone becomes taught what to think rather than how to think.

I've been reading a fair bit about pinehurst no 2. I'd be interested in reading people views regarding whether much more tree clearance should have taken place?

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2014, 03:56:34 PM »
This discussion of "before" & "after" has me thinking about strategies to bring committee members on board in terms of tree removal / reduction.

As we saw from some of the reactions above, it can be jarring to see a "before" of trees and the "after" of complete removal.  I suspect some courses may balk just given the extreme difference.

What I'm wondering is whether it's sometimes better to show a "before" of the course 15-20 years ago vs. the current state.  Members may be used to some type of trees, but not realize just how much the trees have shrunk corridors or eclipsed former views.  I found some photos of my home course I took  approx. 9 years ago, and the growth is stunning, even though I hadn't consciously registered the change over my continuous years playing there.  At the very least, this type of visual may help towards a "thinning" program.




Kevin...well thank the Lord I'm not ever going to have to worry about you pulling a 7 iron 50 yards off line ;D!  The same thing goes with the (implied: hideous) NATURAL AREA up the left side of 18.  Most people are hitting 5 iron to 3 wood (2nd shot) that if started up the right side would leave a good 50 yard miss. So anything other than a massive duck hook will be safe.  Unfortunately, the opportunity to hook a low 5 iron off dirt or a tree root has been thwarted...

Before/After pictures don't matter to a guy that has been at the club for thirty years yet has never cracked a Ross, Tillinghast, or Mackenzie book.  Ditto that for 80% of the top 50 moving towards restoration, or in the case of Bandon, never had the issue in the first place.  "All anecdotal...".  I think even arguing turf quality is a tough sell.  "Yes, the roots are exposed and yes it is competing with the surrounding turf...but this tree is integral...the hole will become too easy if we cut it.  Automatic birdies I tell you".
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2014, 04:20:14 PM »
"Who cut down all the trees around here?"



atb

RBlair

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2014, 08:17:49 AM »
Wow lot of comments about Holston hills on here, I thought the after photos looked much better. I have been a follower of this site for years.  First started reading post on here about 15 years ago or so but do not post often as hard to do in my profession. Always have that fear of upsetting someone, but hey reading this morning on another 20 degree day I figured why not.

In my view the course is 100 percent better now that the trees are gone. I have 1000s of photos of the change in turf and overall look of the course over the years and no question a major improvement. The goal of the removal was to promote the old tradition of the course and to open the course to views from the Clubhouse.  We have add multiply architects visit the course over the years and in each report or conversation tree removal was discussed.  Also for our course the trees in question were not what I would call a strong healthy tree.  They were mostly pines that were all planted in straight rows and never taken care of.  I tracked down the news paper article discussing the planting in our local paper, and have photos of the course right after they were planted.  I have also found many photos of the property prior to the course which shows the open fields.   Would Ross just cut all the trees because they were not there prior, I would say no, but we had a lot of bad trees in bad spots.  Had the Club planted oaks all those years ago I think we would not have been able to remove as many trees as we did over the years.

The native areas are works in progress.  I would love to have a fine rough that is easy to find a ball, but challenge to play from.  Unfortunately in our part of the country and when trying to convert Bermuda to fescue you are going to have some deep fescue. You have to seed heavy to get rid of Bermuda over the years, then allow to thin.  We mow them a few times a years and you do not find as many golf balls as one might think.  Last time I mowed along the 18th hole I found like 15 or 20 balls from the summer season.  Also they are way off the line of play.  Normally you have a good 100 yard  wide or more corridors to play thru.  What we have worked really hard at is making sure there are no forced carries over grasses and that they just surround playing areas while trying to hide cart paths.  (Off the first tee we have one that is to much in play now I will say and we are going to address that area this year)

Lastly I would say the view and feel of the course is much improved.  We are trying to provide a different experience when you play a round at Holston.  A photo just doesn't do justice to the lay of the land once you are on the property.  It's like watching the Master on TV and then going for the first time.  Everyone first comment when they get there is I had no idea there was this much movement and elevation changes.  We are not that much, but you get my point.

Eric you need to come out again, you are just traveling to much I guess these days. I always see you playing somewhere.  Joe good to see you the other day, I would vote for the Dryjet. High cost in dry sand, but does have a lot of benefits. Tom Doak, as always you have an open invitation to return anytime. Would love to hear your thoughts on the place and where we can improve.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2014, 08:46:23 AM »
Joel,

I bet you can find some good ones from the tree removal at Oakmont years ago.  They even had an article in one of the Golf publications as they were cutting down trees at night.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2014, 09:04:26 AM »
Ryan,

It was great to see you at Fox Den Monday as well.

"Normally you have a good 100 yard  wide or more corridors to play thru.  What we have worked really hard at is making sure there are no forced carries over grasses and that they just surround playing areas while trying to hide cart paths.  (Off the first tee we have one that is to much in play now I will say and we are going to address that area this year)".

This is an oft-debated notion that I agree with you on.  I believe there has to be some measure of reward for accuracy from the tee.  The way you set Holston to me is the best of both worlds:  Sufficiently wide fairways, but some penalty if you miss by 60-70 yards.  This thought that every ball has to be found and played regardless of how bad the strike, turf be damned, diminishes (to me at least) the inherent skill involved with the game.  Most clubs are not fortunate enough to have the routing a course like St. Andrews possesses, where fairways appear double and triple the width of most in America...so in the absence of such, I applaud your work.
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2014, 02:54:24 PM »
Thanks for the photos.  Some of the photos show how just removing a few trees can be beneficial.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 05:21:13 PM by Joel_Stewart »

Grant Saunders

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2014, 05:13:06 PM »
Grant,

Many of the trees on #1 and #10 had exposed roots...and tough to tell from a distance, but the ground under many was mostly thin and wispy, or nearly bare.  You can stand on multiple tee boxes and see nearly the entire course, due to the routing and tree removal. 

I am working on another Tree Paradigm article presently, and my friend asked, "what was the record at Holston before the tree removal"?  I said, "62 or 63".  He then said jokingly, "so I bet its 58 or 59 since it plays so easy now"?  I never thought of it in those terms, but always tangle with people that think courses will be left defenseless.  I know Grant, you were speaking about the aesthetics, but I thought his point was interesting. 

What is your opinion on courses that resemble St. Andrews?  I am not trying to debate you (truly) but more find out why that appeals to you?

Joe

Sorry I never replied at the time to your question.

I like the overall look and feel of St Andrews. It has great texture and a variety of shades and colours. Combined with amazing natural movement that doesn't have great elevation change, there are so many wrinkles and shadows that change as the sun moves or the time of year.

I also like the look of Augusta. The long graceful lines work beautifully with the overall feel they have deliberately adopted. They consistency in the use of colour and theme throughout the whole property (as based on tv viewing) and the precision in the maintenance and mowing lines.

Basically, lots of different courses appeal to me and I find the narrow criteria expressed by some in regards to courses hard to understand.

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2014, 10:08:23 AM »

A lot of trees were planted at Holston when the course was built as the early photos show.

The situation is better now as the pines planted in the 60s based on the old newspaper article I found are mostly gone.

The most intrusive pines were at the 3rd, 5th and 7th and those are gone. Many other pines that were never in play but obstructed views are gone as well.

The natural areas are a beast at Holston but there are what they are. 

Too much rain, too much sun, and good soils produce a very thick natural area.

A few natural areas look very un-natural in several spots but overall, the natural areas are fine at Holston.

Fortunately my visits are few and far between to those areas,  but I do wince when players are stuck in the narrow un-natural area behind the 10th green.

We eliminated some high grasses along the 5th thought to be a good idea at one time.

Hopefully the natural areas at Holston are done.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2014, 03:40:26 PM »
Take a look at the work at Carolina GC in Charlotte in 2008 - before, during and after.  http://www.carolinagolfclub.org/Final-Comp-Pics-for-Spence.aspx

Sorry if this is a repeat.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2014, 04:31:06 PM »
Take a look at the work at Carolina GC in Charlotte in 2008 - before, during and after.  http://www.carolinagolfclub.org/Final-Comp-Pics-for-Spence.aspx

Sorry if this is a repeat.

Carl,

Those are awesome.
H.P.S.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2014, 02:00:48 AM »

Thanks for the photos.  Some of the photos show how just removing a few trees can be beneficial.


Joel,

Contact Brad Klein, he probably has one of the most striking, informative before and after photo/s you've ever seen




Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2014, 03:59:16 PM »
Take a look at the work at Carolina GC in Charlotte in 2008 - before, during and after.  http://www.carolinagolfclub.org/Final-Comp-Pics-for-Spence.aspx

Sorry if this is a repeat.

Here is an old thread with some before/after pictures of Carolina Golf Club... http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37123.0.html

I didn't include these in the thread, but this is a before picture of our 3rd hole viewed from the tee and looking at the green...

And this is what it looks like after our restoration...

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Seeking before & after photos on tree removal
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2014, 05:28:09 PM »
Ed,

That is incredible!
H.P.S.

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