3-4-3-5-5-3-5-5

[jeffwarne]

The finish at The Victoria Club, Riverside .
2 par 4s on the back
VERY interesting course- blast to finish
15 a double dogleg Alps with a serpentine creek eventually crossed one way or another depending on option  to green chosen
About 100 trees away from being fantastic-sadly they are going the other direction

Anyone ever seen 4 par 5s in the last 6?
or 1 par 4 in last 8?

Shout out to Robert Deruntz for showing me this gem

[Connor Dougherty]

Jeff,
I was thinking of how a lot of places could learn from Pacific Dunes using the land rather than fitting the concept of number of pars per 9.

The back goes 3-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-5

It's not quite one par 4 or 4 par 5's, but it's darn close.

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone ever seen 4 par 5s in the last 6?

I remember watching the old World Matchplay tournament from Wentworth decades ago, back in the days of only 8 players competing, when the par of the holes from the 13th to the 18th was, I believe, 5, 4, 3, 5, 4, 5, 5. That was is the days of wooden heads and steel shafts and balls that weren't round though, back when a wooden headed club for the second shot on a par-5 was just about the norm.
atb

[Adrian_Stiff]

Birkdale was a back 6 off 5-3-5-4-5-5 for quite a few Opens and the 1st and 6th used to be fives so that was a 74.
Wentworth's fives were 1, 4, 12, 15, 17 and 18 par was 74 probably until the mid seventies.
Tredegar Park (NLE) used to have 4 on the trot from about the 5th or 6th.
4 short holes in a nine are also quite rare on a course over par 70.

[Bill Seitz]

The finish at The Victoria Club, Riverside .
2 par 4s on the back
VERY interesting course- blast to finish
15 a double dogleg Alps with a serpentine creek eventually crossed one way or another depending on option  to green chosen
About 100 trees away from being fantastic-sadly they are going the other direction

Anyone ever seen 4 par 5s in the last 6?
or 1 par 4 in last 8?

I knew instantly from the title of the thread which course you were talking about.  This was my home course in college for my senior year when UC Riverside was still division 2 and only had a club team for golf (back in 1995).  They've made some changes to it since then.  The pond between #12 and #17 didn't exist when I was playing it.  It also looks like they did some work to the creek to keep it from eroding too much.  We had some rain storms that year that seemed to widen the creek where it crosses the 14th fairway.  15 is kind of a cool version of an Alps hole.  My recollection is that the greens were the primary method of defense out there.  Really short and tight, but a lot of fun to play.  I think they make really good use of the creek, especially on #s 4 and 18.  

Speaking of that creek, it runs through both Vic and Canyon Crest CC a little to the west with a small dam in between.  Canyon Crest isn't quite as tony as Vic.  One year when Canyon Crest was still our home course, there was a pretty sizable flood, and a couple holes at CCCC were under water.  I was later told (don't know if it's true) that when they get that much rain, they back up that dam to keep Vic from flooding, no matter the consequences to CCCC.  

I still remember the first round I played there.  Some of the guys on the team were members and/or worked at Vic.  I was the first player in the first group of our first practice round.  You don't really want to hit the ball any further than about 225 off of that tee, but I was kind of thrown into the fire pretty quickly and didn't bother to check the scorecard, nor did I really know the course from a spatial perspective.  That being the case, I figured it's a par 4, must be a driver!  Afterward, everyone else on the team thought I was nuts for hitting driver there.  Actually hit a decent drive just into the left rough, sand wedge up onto the green, and walked off with birdie, though I don't think I ever hit driver there again.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,
I was thinking of how a lot of places could learn from Pacific Dunes using the land rather than fitting the concept of number of pars per 9.

The back goes 3-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-5

It's not quite one par 4 or 4 par 5's, but it's darn close.

Pacific Dunes is a lessor course for it. If you take minimalism at face value then you must accept the short comings of the land against the value of the course. If you like executive courses so be it, if you like championship courses go with it. Pacific Dunes is a great course for average golfers at best. Four par threes to finish is the equivalent of an Irish gang bang.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff,
I was thinking of how a lot of places could learn from Pacific Dunes using the land rather than fitting the concept of number of pars per 9.

The back goes 3-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-5

It's not quite one par 4 or 4 par 5's, but it's darn close.

Pacific Dunes is a lessor course for it. If you take minimalism at face value then you must accept the short comings of the land against the value of the course. If you like executive courses so be it, if you like championship courses go with it. Pacific Dunes is a great course for average golfers at best. Four par threes to finish is the equivalent of an Irish gang bang.

John:

I disagree. The whole point of traveling is to see something different, to see courses with their own unique character. It is hard to do this without following what the land gives you, which Pacific Dunes does. Nothing against Winged Foot - clearly a "championship" venue - but I don't want Pacific Dunes to be Winged Foot any more than I want North Berwick to be Oakmont.

Part of greatness is being something unique, something that gives me a reason to make the journey.

[Jon Wiggett]

Wentworth west course used to have 3 par 5s in the last 4 holes from the member's tees.

Jon

[jeffwarne]

The finish at The Victoria Club, Riverside .
2 par 4s on the back
VERY interesting course- blast to finish
15 a double dogleg Alps with a serpentine creek eventually crossed one way or another depending on option  to green chosen
About 100 trees away from being fantastic-sadly they are going the other direction

Anyone ever seen 4 par 5s in the last 6?
or 1 par 4 in last 8?

I knew instantly from the title of the thread which course you were talking about.  This was my home course in college for my senior year when UC Riverside was still division 2 and only had a club team for golf (back in 1995).  They've made some changes to it since then.  The pond between #12 and #17 didn't exist when I was playing it.  It also looks like they did some work to the creek to keep it from eroding too much.  We had some rain storms that year that seemed to widen the creek where it crosses the 14th fairway.  15 is kind of a cool version of an Alps hole.  My recollection is that the greens were the primary method of defense out there.  Really short and tight, but a lot of fun to play.  I think they make really good use of the creek, especially on #s 4 and 18.  

Speaking of that creek, it runs through both Vic and Canyon Crest CC a little to the west with a small dam in between.  Canyon Crest isn't quite as tony as Vic.  One year when Canyon Crest was still our home course, there was a pretty sizable flood, and a couple holes at CCCC were under water.  I was later told (don't know if it's true) that when they get that much rain, they back up that dam to keep Vic from flooding, no matter the consequences to CCCC.  

I still remember the first round I played there.  Some of the guys on the team were members and/or worked at Vic.  I was the first player in the first group of our first practice round.  You don't really want to hit the ball any further than about 225 off of that tee, but I was kind of thrown into the fire pretty quickly and didn't bother to check the scorecard, nor did I really know the course from a spatial perspective.  That being the case, I figured it's a par 4, must be a driver!  Afterward, everyone else on the team thought I was nuts for hitting driver there.  Actually hit a decent drive just into the left rough, sand wedge up onto the green, and walked off with birdie, though I don't think I ever hit driver there again.  

Yes Bill there was a master plan in the bagroom from 1987- ick
Thankfully most wasn't implemented though the pond on 17 is hideous and a shame because there is lots of room behind the tee for lengthening the hole-though a little cooperation would be needed from players on 13.
Sad to see new staked trees in silly places on a course so close to greatness

[John Kavanaugh]

We live in a modern world which must be measured by modern standards. To ignore the tee ball in golf would be like ignoring the sound quality in movies. I have five senses, not six.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Wentworth west course used to have 3 par 5s in the last 4 holes from the member's tees.

Jon

and from the championship tees

[Jason Topp]

Pat Craig's course finishes 4-3-5-4-3-5-5-5-3

[Paul Gray]

Jeff,
I was thinking of how a lot of places could learn from Pacific Dunes using the land rather than fitting the concept of number of pars per 9.

The back goes 3-3-5-4-3-5-4-3-5

It's not quite one par 4 or 4 par 5's, but it's darn close.

Pacific Dunes is a lessor course for it. If you take minimalism at face value then you must accept the short comings of the land against the value of the course. If you like executive courses so be it, if you like championship courses go with it. Pacific Dunes is a great course for average golfers at best. Four par threes to finish is the equivalent of an Irish gang bang.

Of all places, do we have to succumb to the terms 'executive' or 'championship' course on GCA? What do these terms even really mean?

I've played all sorts of good and bad courses with all sorts of pars and all sorts of variables therein. I've never sought to categorise or rate a course though on the basis of some artificial sense of numerical balance.

[Alex Miller]

We live in a modern world which must be measured by modern standards. To ignore the tee ball in golf would be like ignoring the sound quality in movies. I have five senses, not six.

And not zero?

Sorry-too easy 

Do you really feel the tee ball is being "ignored in these instances? Pacific Dunes could also be described as having 2 par 3's in the final 7 holes. That seems pretty normal.

[Dwight Phelps]

We live in a modern world which must be measured by modern standards. To ignore the tee ball in golf would be like ignoring the sound quality in movies. I have five senses, not six.

I will readily admit to not having played PD, but there's only 5 one-shotters out there, even if they are concetrated on the back.  Not sure how 13/18 holes requiring a tee ball qualifies as ignoring the tee ball.

[John Kavanaugh]

The sequence of holes matters in match play and is amplified with presses. When the money or match is on the line I want to see a guy find a fairway.

[Ken Moum]

Good golf doesn't need to follow a formula.

As an example of the reverse, look at the absolutely delectable course at Elie.

4-4-3-4-4-4-4-4-4  4-3-4-4-4-4-4-4-4.

In fact, the apparent obsession these days for 36-36 = 72, with four threes and four fives, two on each nine, is really really dumb, IMHO.

Ken

[Jon Wiggett]

Wentworth west course used to have 3 par 5s in the last 4 holes from the member's tees.

Jon

and from the championship tees

Damn, I was saving that for later in the thread

Jon

[Carl Rogers]

The sequence of holes matters in match play and is amplified with presses. When the money or match is on the line I want to see a guy find a fairway.

another issue at Pacific is fighting the elements and playing the game ...

[Forrest Richardson]

Bishop Auckland, Northern England (from Routing the Golf Course):

"...is a charming 18-hole layout in Northern England. The Bishop, as it is known, sports a most unpredictable order of par. Beginning on the front side, golfers face holes of modern-day par 4, 5, 5, 5, 3, 4, 3, 3, 5 = 37, and, continuing on the back, par 3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 = 35. ….this is a course where the land was used to its fullest. Short holes (par 3s) were obviously situated along a meandering creek, and because the creek refused to run uphill to the clubhouse site, these holes are largely bunched in one area, well away from the clubhouse....The order of par and everything else unusual about this course is a product of what mattered most. Remember, too, that James Kay, the original designer, and those who followed were not encumbered by the whole idea of par. Bishop Auckland fits, but sadly it would be a difficult task to convince the modern-day developer of this."