[archie_struthers]

 

Philadelphia CC is a wonderful golf course built by Toomey /Flynn circa 1927 . Great history , great golf course . One of Philly's finest . But every time I am  lucky enough to play there the fairway bunker on the left side of 14 (tee shot)  drives me crazy .

Fourteen is a fairly long par four , with a left to right canted tilt that runs from tee to green . It's actually built into a beautiful swale that runs downhill then up to a fairly large, difficult green .

The green is quite severe , requiring a precise second shot because of its front to back and strong left to right cant. The best angle of approach is from the right center of the fairway as you can play into the slope of the green and control your distance . It's a hard hole for anyone not hitting a lofted spinning shot.

Standing on the tee , the hole's line of charm is broken by the bunker in question! It just breaks the flow of the natural hill the hole is built into.  Moreover, the bunker serves no purpose to me , as carrying it is of no value , leaving you a side hill lie (albeit sleight)  to a green that is built to deflect same. Another reason its bad is that for the club player the bunker is penal, for the expert it's easier than the rough .  On top of this , the bunker just sort of tells you to aim right , and not try to cut the length of the hole ( it's a big par four) by taking the short road home.

How do you convince anyone to remove an original  bunker built by one of the masters?

[Joe Bausch]

Don't have one Archie.  But maybe this Google Earth aerial might be of use.

[archie_struthers]

 


thanks to Joe for supplying the google image , still looking for a still photo of the hole in question.

[mike_malone]

If that bunker is original I wonder if fairway was planned beyond the bunker

[archie_struthers]

 


Mayday , that's spot on!  if it's gonna be there at least make getting over it put you in the short grass. If you have to keep it because it's original, and you know how that argument plays out , then make it more relevant.

[Powell Arms]

With the left to right slope of the fairway, I have had success playing from way right, about where the cart is sitting in joe's image. (On many too many occasions!)

In looking at the 1925 routing plan in "The Nature Faker", 14 is hole 1. Hole 1 ran parallel to existing 14 and was a similar dogleg left. It did not have a bunker inside the dogleg on be left.

It does appear as a very small bunker in a 1939 routing plan In the 1939 plan, it is drawn to indicate that fairway is beyond the right half of it.it appears these changes were made for the US Open.

I agree with you, if I challenge the bunker and carry it, it seems like the shot should be regarded, and not land in the rough, as it does today.  If the bunker stays, it seems like mowing fairway up to and beyond it would be an improvement, and give considerably more effective width to the fairway, which seems pretty narrow for an uphill 430 yard hole.

[John Burnes]

I felt compelled to post because of how much PCC means to me, caddied, pro-shop boy, cart boy there while in grad school.  As a result, a top ten place for me, with cobbs and some others in the area.  

Anyway, as you know, the 14th was the 1st, the 17th was the 4th etc., and the bunker you mentioned (and a valid point it is) was not part of the final design and layout of the course.  I sent the great Joe Baush the aerial I have from my office as I don't know how to post photos.  Maybe he can post it.  You'll notice the clubhouse (now the maintanence building) is right near the tee (though not as far back as today).

[archie_struthers]

 

Thanks guys. Powell , did Flynn do the renovations in advance of the open , say in 1937 ?

[Powell Arms]

Thanks guys. Powell , did Flynn do the renovations in advance of the open , say in 1937 ?

Yes, Flynn did do work to stiffen the course for the 1939 US Open. More detail to follow later tonight.

[Powell Arms]

Philly Country's Spring Mill course opened in 1927.  Perry Maxwell made some changes to greens and approaches in 1931, apparently with the mandate to make the course a bit easier.  It does not appear that the 14th hole (then 1) was changed by Maxwell.

In July of 1938, responded to a request by the Club with proposed changes that were adopted for the 1939 US Open.  Those changes included lengthening the hole by approx 25 yards, and revising the greenside bunkering so that it was pulled away from the green slightly.  Seems an interesting change, perhaps it was done to provide a bit more room for a run up shot.

All of this information comes from The Nature Faker, by Wayne Morrison & Tom Paul.

As stated above, the 1939 drawings do indicate that the left fairway bunker has fairway behind it.  It I recall the slope of the land correctly, a drive that landed there might get a nice turbo boost forward and right to end up in the middle right of the fairway.

So, to answer Archie's original question, maybe the fairway mowing just needs to be restored.   The hole oringially played 425 yards.  In 1939, it played 450.  Today it is around 475 from the tips.  I think it is still around 440 from the blues, and around 240 to that left bunker.

  

[JESII]

Come on Archie...this has to be the fourth thread you've started in the last 5 years regarding this one bunker...what happened to you in there?

This is more than a mowing miss for you...this is obsession. Are the bunkers on the right hill on #4 at PV next in line?

[Joe Bausch]

Come on Archie...this has to be the fourth thread you've started in the last 5 years regarding this one bunker...what happened to you in there?

This is more than a mowing miss for you...this is obsession. Are the bunkers on the right hill on #4 at PV next in line?

Go get 'em Jim!  ;-)

[JESII]

He'll be sobbing on the shrink's sofa before Turkey Day

[archie_struthers]

 

Jimmy , Jimmy jimmy !  You are so right , but timing is everything .

If you really believe in GCA and getting it right , you need to finish what you started . That's  why I hope someone will really take a look at that bunker and take it out . One thing about the Philly CC guys , they take pride in the golf course .
If we find the right photo's it just might get fixed .



It's not just this one bunker , it's the concept that anything built by the original architect is sacrosanct , irrespective of its relevance . Would it be better we talk about the cost of cart fees on site, or lawsuits about discrimination?

Heaven forbid we actually analyze a hole that might improve to a great extent with a little tweak at a club where they can afford it and care about the golf course.

As to a shrink I continue to consider it as answer to my putting  issues.

[JESII]

You know as well as I do that there is no shrink that cures putting ills...so let's talk about this bunker.

In my opinion, you don't have a hole if you remove the bunker and replace it with fairway. Make the bunker more difficult! Wrap fairway all the way around it...whatever. But if you remove that bunker the hole loses most of its worth.

[Kevin_D]

Not sure that these are terribly helpful, but I think these are of #14 at PCC

Tee shot:


Green:

[mike_malone]

 If I am not mistaken the venerable Tom Paul said once that Flynn built bunkers which just forced you away from the dogleg. He was standing on #2 at Rolling Green when he said this.

[Joe Bausch]

The aerial John Burnes was referring to:

[Joe Bausch]

From The Lurker:

I think it's a good bunker for a number of reasons. Most all those reasons center around what I refer to as "strategic balance." By that I mean it appears to the golfer on the tee that since the hole is a gentle dogleg left with a fairway cant going left to right that the appropriate place for the ideal tee shot is either over that bunker (I think they should have fairway over the bunker for the long drivers) or just to the right of it. However, one will find from experience that due to the cant of the green the right side is probably the best place to be anyway. I don't think that kind of thing was lost on Flynn---eg he regularly tried to screw with a player's mind about what the best thing to do might be.

[JESII]

What did the right side look like initially?

It certainly looks like it was built up and trees planted to create a buffer...when did that happen? There may have been a high likelihood of a ball hit down the right side running way off line down that hill.

I stand by the comment that the best played drives will have to flirt with this bunker either in front, along the side or over the top. From today's back tee it's about 330 to carry. Even with the slight down hill there aren't many people capable of that.

[mike_malone]

Based on "lurker" post my recollection changes to "screws with your mind".My own observation is Flynn 's best fairway bunkers are ones you take on not avoid.

[archie_struthers]

 

Thanks for the reply's .  Even Jim chimed albeit he's way wrong .  

Here's the problem with the bunker.  You really want to tempt the players to play it left . Yet the bunker tells you it's the wrong play . It's such a beautiful "line of charm " for the golfer on the tee , until that ugly bunker breaks it.  

It's a good hole , aesthetically the bunker doesn't work . If it was penal and protected the fairway I would understand it but as is it sucks , lol!  If I hit it in the bunker , I have a good chance of hitting the green , if I hit it over or short , good luck holding the green from the rough .


It's ugly , has no strategic value , rip it out .  C'mon rip it out !

[archie_struthers]

 

Interesting discussion brewing here.  If indeed this bunker was put in to stiffen the test for the Open , perhaps the architect erred. I'm not buying that he was trying to double mind twist everyone as an afterthought 12 years after he built the hole. Don't know if the USGA  was already into its Open preparation mode in the 1930's , but we can delve into that if someone knows the answer.

Could it be the typical paranoia of someone shooting a low score, and embarrassing the host club . Snead and company were hitting it pretty far and maybe the ball was rolling miles and miles on the less than plush terrain of the era. So we stick a few bunkers in the driving area to toughen it up ?  Just a thought.

[JESII]

Maybe it's in here somewhere...but are you thinking the whole area should be fairway?

Isn't "the line of charm" supposed to mislead a golfer? The reverse cant of this fairway makes the bunker the ideal line to drive it then let the ball run to the right...

Let's walk through the thoughts and issues for different levels of players.

[John Burnes]

I think different eyes see different things (surprise).  For example, the Lurker sees the whole different than I do, mostly because he hits from the wrong side of the ball.  I'm left-handed but play righty, and I found the ideal line for me, is to hit a draw, drunken-sailor-tumbler, which puts me beyond the bunker and in the A position Archie speaks of.  From there, its a short iron to some of the finest greens in the land.

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