[J.D. Griffith]

What course when you play, frustrates you the most architecturally?  
We all have at least one course we shake our head, wondering what the GCA was thinking, or drinking for that matter when they designed it.  We may not know the all the constraints/obstacles that they faced, but we can still give an honest critique, can't we?

[Thomas Dai]

How about that Desmond Muirhead course with the shark-jaw bunker etc? That would have me wondering what he was thinking, or drinking for that matter, when he designed it!
All the best.

[Ronald Montesano]

Making my level-best effort to derail the thread, but what if the architect's hands were tied by the topography? "Build me a course" he said. "But sir, there's not enough room" he answered. "If you want your commission and my endorsement, you'll build me a course."

[Chris DeToro]

Maybe it's because I very recently played it, but Egypt Valley in Grand Rapids MI is frustrating to me.  It's a great piece of rolling land that I feel the archiect just went way overboard trying to make it into something it didn't need to be.  The grounds are lined by manufactured mounds making it not only an incredibly difficult walk or ride, but also have to be hell on the maintenance staff.  But I guess the land is dramatic enough without the added artificial feel of many of the features

[Chris Mavros]

White Clay Creek in DE.  Too many awkward forced carries and almost every green is raised and small with shaved edges.  Just too much going on that it breaks up any flow from one hole to the next.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I feel very treacherous in suggesting the name of Lilleshall Hall. It was a course of the late 1930s laid out by Harry Colt in rural Shropshire. I learned to play golf there in the 1960s. It would be awful of me to denigrate the opportunities it presented to me. But it was a bog. It was waterlogged and over-treed. Yet it has several - lots - of wonderfully strategic holes. You don't want to play a course of fewer than 6,000 yards. Give Lilleshall Hall a try!

 

[Joe Sponcia]

Legends - Moorland, Myrtle Beach.  Pete and PB Dye.

[Carl Rogers]

Legends - Moorland, Myrtle Beach.  Pete and PB Dye.

agreed awkward unplayable etc

[Bill Crane]

Unfortunately, the first club that comes to mind has hit the GD best in state list and the members would crucify me if I listed the name.  

The members smugly think it is one of the best in world, that it is under-rated when actually it has serious design flaws and duplication of holes.  I describe it as a hard course with no soul.

Since I do have friends who are members I will restrain from naming it.  I will point out that a prominent hole has a downhill fairway sloping RIGHT to the left (towards the OB) , on a dogleg RIGHT hole, that you hit to tight green sloping away from you right to left.  By the way, if you don't hit it OB, the second shot with your right foot higher than your left, hitting to green to the left below you is almost the perfect recipe for a S (hank).

So, if you hit a draw you are sunk, and few people can hit a fade from this lie, and it is really hard to hit this shot straight.  

But the real point is that my acquaintances would be absurdly upset if I noted the name of the course.  That's probably true of all honest comments  to this thread, someone will take it personally.

Wm Flynnfan

[Jon Wiggett]

I feel very treacherous in suggesting the name of Lilleshall Hall. It was a course of the late 1930s laid out by Harry Colt in rural Shropshire. I learned to play golf there in the 1960s. It would be awful of me to denigrate the opportunities it presented to me. But it was a bog. It was waterlogged and over-treed. Yet it has several - lots - of wonderfully strategic holes. You don't want to play a course of fewer than 6,000 yards. Give Lilleshall Hall a try!

 

I thought it was just wet because I only played it in the winter when attending the yearly PGA Assistant's courses  next door to it. Yes, it was a bog, over-treed and off course off mats and temporary greens. Apart form this I have very little recollection of the course.

Jon

[Matt Wharton]

Any course designed by PB Dye... I have played three of his designs in my lifetime, The Gauntlet near Fredericksburg, VA; The Moorland Course at Legends Resort in Myrtle Beach and recently NorthStone CC just north of Charlotte, NC.  I always think the same thing when I play one of his courses...what drugs was this guy on!

my two cents

[Jud_T]

Ballybunion Cashen.  Not sure if it's the architecture or that the site is simply too severe for a golf course...

[Jim Sherma]

Any course designed by PB Dye... I have played three of his designs in my lifetime, The Gauntlet near Fredericksburg, VA; The Moorland Course at Legends Resort in Myrtle Beach and recently NorthStone CC just north of Charlotte, NC.  I always think the same thing when I play one of his courses...what drugs was this guy on!

my two cents

Iron Valley in Central PA can be added to the list. Awkward stuff  with some holes that just don't make sense to me.

[Jason Thurman]

The course that comes to mind for me is Quarry Oaks in Nebraska. By no means is it a poor course. It's a decent modern "tough" course with a few interesting holes. The part that frustrates me is that I truly believe the property borders on superb. It sits high on a bluff overlooking the Platte River. Unsurprisingly, it plays through the remnants of an old quarry. And while it has tremendous elevation change that's severe in spots, it's also a walkable property and even the course that was built is fairly walkable despite some very long transitions.

It's frustrating to think about what could have been with a more imaginative design, a little more width, and a little less pure "difficulty for difficulty's sake." It's also frustrating to play the stretch of holes that play along the river on the back nine, as these spectacular views are largely covered by trees.

A good course and worth playing if you're driving between Omaha and Lincoln. But it could've been great.

[Joe Bausch]

Any course designed by PB Dye... I have played three of his designs in my lifetime, The Gauntlet near Fredericksburg, VA; The Moorland Course at Legends Resort in Myrtle Beach and recently NorthStone CC just north of Charlotte, NC.  I always think the same thing when I play one of his courses...what drugs was this guy on!

my two cents

Iron Valley in Central PA can be added to the list. Awkward stuff  with some holes that just don't make sense to me.

But I still like Iron Valley with the few blemishes!

[Joe Sponcia]

Any course designed by PB Dye... I have played three of his designs in my lifetime, The Gauntlet near Fredericksburg, VA; The Moorland Course at Legends Resort in Myrtle Beach and recently NorthStone CC just north of Charlotte, NC.  I always think the same thing when I play one of his courses...what drugs was this guy on!

my two cents

Oddly enough, Prestwick in Murrells Inlet, SC has a phenomenal back nine, probably top 5 best stretch on the strand, but the front is quirky in spots.  A bit forgettable.

[Keith Grande]

Ballybunion Cashen.  Not sure if it's the architecture or that the site is simply too severe for a golf course...

+1

The back nine at Cashen was voted the toughest nine on our Ireland trip this past spring.  Not only were the holes tight, they were also blind off the tee.  Add in tough winds and mounds of fescue requiring a machete on the approaches to the greens.  There was one dogleg left par 5 with an elevated tee and dunes on both sides of the faiway, with the fairway running downhill left to right.  We never found our tee shots after looking on both sides of the fairway/rough.

There was another par 5 with a split fairway and a green perched on top of a dune that looked like Mount Everest. I'm not sure what type of club would be required that could carry 200+ at that height.

[Richard Choi]

For me, it is Tetherow, no one else is close.

Tethrow is frustrating to me because, it is great tee to green and the wild greens are rollicking fun. However, there no connections between the fairway and the greens. There are fairways that invite left to right runners, but the green requires right to left approach, and so on.

If the fairways matched their greens, this would be one of the best in PNW, but as is, it is a tragic curiosity. That is frustrating.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

to me, it's Olympic-Ocean.  Not that it's a bad course... I actually like it quite a bit now that i've played the redo a couple times after giving the course time to mature from last year.  However, i just think it was a missed opportunity to do something unique and really fun and interesting, as oppsed to similar, in look and feel, to the the Lake and other bay area courses.

[Mike Hendren]

For me it's The Old Course but not for the reasons you mention.  It seems so simple, but ....

Bogey

[Rich Goodale]

Cruden Bay

I get really grumpy when climbing up that stupid hill to the stupider 9th hole (even after I can catch my breath and then take in the great eye candy view backwards!!! from the tee), and even grumpier when I play the stupidest 10th and then the just OK 11th-15th.  Why, with great archies such as Old Tom Morris, Archie Simpson, Herbert Fowler, Tom Simpson and Frank Pont being involved, could not SOMEBODY have stood up and said when they had the chance, something to the efect of....

"Make a 'championship' course from today's holes 1-8 and 16-18 plus the land on which the St. Olaf's course lies.  Move your world class view clubhouse up on the point where the back tee for today's 9th is and make it an all world club house.  The first hole would be an incredible one from the back of the now 9th tee to the now 16th green.  You then go to (today's) 17 and then get funky in the rumpty-pumty dunes of St. Olafs and 1-8 on the old course, finishing on what is now the 15th green (with a cool 1st/18th crossover).  You make a relief 9-hole course out of the land of 9-14 (with maybe a funky funicular from 15 to the clubhouse for the geriatrics)."

....and then sat down waiting for the crescendo of applause and adulation.

It would work!

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Cruden Bay

I get really grumpy when climbing up that stupid hill to the stupider 9th hole (even after I can catch my breath and then take in the great eye candy view backwards!!! from the tee), and even grumpier when I play the stupidest 10th and then the just OK 11th-15th.  Why, with great archies such as Old Tom Morris, Archie Simpson, Herbert Fowler, Tom Simpson and Frank Pont being involved, could not SOMEBODY have stood up and said when they had the chance, something to the efect of....

"Make a 'championship' course from today's holes 1-8 and 16-18 plus the land on which the St. Olaf's course lies.  Move your world class view clubhouse up on the point where the back tee for today's 9th is and make it an all world club house.  The first hole would be an incredible one from the back of the now 9th tee to the now 16th green.  You then go to (today's) 17 and then get funky in the rumpty-pumty dunes of St. Olafs and 1-8 on the old course, finishing on what is now the 15th green (with a cool 1st/18th crossover).  You make a relief 9-hole course out of the land of 9-14 (with maybe a funky funicular from 15 to the clubhouse for the geriatrics)."

Rich:

I happen to like Cruden Bay, and I don't want to see it redesigned, even though some of those holes 9-16 are certainly less than ideal.

I don't know the history of the course, but I'd be surprised if they didn't HAVE a routing like you suggest somewhere back in time, that they went away from.  I'd be shocked if they had bypassed all of the St. Olaf ground on the original routing, to climb up the hill to the 9th ... to save ground for a relief course.

Does anyone know the progression of the routing?  I know it was about as it is today back in 1928, but nothing about what came before.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Cruden Bay

I get really grumpy when climbing up that stupid hill to the stupider 9th hole (even after I can catch my breath and then take in the great eye candy view backwards!!! from the tee), and even grumpier when I play the stupidest 10th and then the just OK 11th-15th.  Why, with great archies such as Old Tom Morris, Archie Simpson, Herbert Fowler, Tom Simpson and Frank Pont being involved, could not SOMEBODY have stood up and said when they had the chance, something to the efect of....

"Make a 'championship' course from today's holes 1-8 and 16-18 plus the land on which the St. Olaf's course lies.  Move your world class view clubhouse up on the point where the back tee for today's 9th is and make it an all world club house.  The first hole would be an incredible one from the back of the now 9th tee to the now 16th green.  You then go to (today's) 17 and then get funky in the rumpty-pumty dunes of St. Olafs and 1-8 on the old course, finishing on what is now the 15th green (with a cool 1st/18th crossover).  You make a relief 9-hole course out of the land of 9-14 (with maybe a funky funicular from 15 to the clubhouse for the geriatrics)."

Rich:

I happen to like Cruden Bay, and I don't want to see it redesigned, even though some of those holes 9-16 are certainly less than ideal.

I don't know the history of the course, but I'd be surprised if they didn't HAVE a routing like you suggest somewhere back in time, that they went away from.  I'd be shocked if they had bypassed all of the St. Olaf ground on the original routing, to climb up the hill to the 9th ... to save ground for a relief course.

Does anyone know the progression of the routing?  I know it was about as it is today back in 1928, but nothing about what came before.

You could be right Tom - calling Melvyn?

... But they'd never have thought about putting the clubhouse where Rich suggests given that proximity to village would always have been the priority...

[Michael Whitaker]

Any course designed by PB Dye... I have played three of his designs in my lifetime, The Gauntlet near Fredericksburg, VA; The Moorland Course at Legends Resort in Myrtle Beach and recently NorthStone CC just north of Charlotte, NC.  I always think the same thing when I play one of his courses...what drugs was this guy on!

my two cents

Oddly enough, Prestwick in Murrells Inlet, SC has a phenomenal back nine, probably top 5 best stretch on the strand, but the front is quirky in spots.  A bit forgettable.

I have to disagree here. Prestwick is a fantastic course... one of my very favorite hidden gems. And, it's Pete Dye, not PB... early Pete before he started trying so hard to outdo himself with each new course. PB's name is also on the course, but mainly to help get him going in the business and establish a resume. The club has rebuilt all the greens this year using mini verde and they are FANTASTIC! Firm & fast... nearly perfect for a course of this type. Management has also made a decision to try and keep the fairways firmer so the ball will run, but this is a difficult proposition in the Myrtle Beach market where "green" sells tee times. Prestwick is one of the early Pete Dye courses that truly reflects the influences he garnered from his UK tour. It has numerous holes that would be right at home on a heathland course... especially if the course played firmer (and they are trying). I never miss an opportunity to play Prestwick CC or recommend it to a friend visiting MB.

[Rich Goodale]

Youngest Tom

As far as I know, Oldest Tom did in fact take that first trek up the hill to the 9th tee to go where any golfing man had never gone before (probably on a zimmer....).  There was some kind of course laid out on the low links by "who knows" before Tom and Archie S. got there.  Both of these dudes were smart enough to know that the best land laid in fornt of them, but they were doing their work in front of (and most probably in the pay of) the Cruden Bay Hotel and I strongly suspect that since the Hotel was built at great cost (including a special railway fom the main line 5 miles inland) moving the 1st tee a mile to the south was not an option and since the Hotel also catered to the more delicate golfer (there were "bathing stations" over the dunes on the beach to the east of todays 5th and 6th holes, offering them only one ball-buster course was not in the programme.  But of course, like Mr. Mucci, I could be horribly, horribly wrong......

Anybody who is really spaced out by this thread, try listening to Jone Mitchell, and particularly the first few lines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgMEPk6fvpg

Why?......

Well, 100+ years ago the Cruden Bay Hotel had the nickname of "The Pink Hotel in the Sands."

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